Cursive or Print

Cynomys said:

I think the question of connections between letters may depend upon the system. In Spencerian, the capital letters are not connected with the following letters. As for the lower case letters, they all begin with an upstroke which starts on the base line. All but 4 (b, o, v, and w) end with a stroke which drops to the base line before continuing, so there are only those 4 with possible connection problems with the following letters.

In most of those latter cases, there is a very easy connection in any case (as with b and l since the l continues with an upward stroke from the end of the b). A problem arises for, say, the connection between b and e. You either have to raise the e above the line height (which looks ugly), or drop the exit stroke of the b down a bit before heading into the e. With such simple proceedures, all of the 600+ connections are very natural and smooth (at least in Spencerian).

Click to expand...

I may yet learn Spencerian. To me s business hand Spencerian is about as elegant as it gets. If you are truly using Spencerian, I am completely out of my league, and I bow to you. Spencerian takes an extraordinary level of control yo my knowledge and limiterd experience. And back in the day, folks studied for literally years to attain a fantastically legible, wonderfully beautiful and very fast Spencerian hand.

What I am trying to piece out is what the average person can do to get most quickly and easily--and I do not mean to imply that anything is all that easy!--to get to a reasonably fast, legible, and relatively elegant hand.

None of what I am saying is original, but I would not connect any letters into an e. Or any letters from a q or g. i do not like the look of connections into an s, but I know that it is typical and I doubt that it affects legibility There are lots of others. Some, for me, based on what is easiest to keep legible and some based on keeping letters simple and distinct. Re the latter, it seems to me that a q or a g can end below the line and stay most legible and most controlled. To connect it, one must create a loop that is an extra stroke and makes the letter less distinct. Why make that loop? It does not take any more effort and arguably takes less effort to simply pick up the pen and start the next letter afresh. An invisible connection, if necessary.

The Palmer method of handwriting was very much about speed. . . not lifting the pen etc. I write more quickly than I can print. I took typing classes and thought I was pretty good at 40 words per minute but I've noticed a lot of amazingly faster people who can take notes on a computer in a meeting . . . I can do it by pen then type it in later . . . would be nice to not take that extra step.

The Knize said:

I may yet learn Spencerian. To me s business hand Spencerian is about as elegant as it gets. If you are truly using Spencerian, I am completely out of my league, and I bow to you. Spencerian takes an extraordinary level of control yo my knowledge and limiterd experience. And back in the day, folks studied for literally years to attain a fantastically legible, wonderfully beautiful and very fast Spencerian hand.

What I am trying to piece out is what the average person can do to get most quickly and easily--and I do not mean to imply that anything is all that easy!--to get to a reasonably fast, legible, and relatively elegant hand.

Click to expand...

My Spencerian penmanship is currently at the monoline stage. And all lower case at that. I am working on the upper case letters. Meanwhile, it is e.e.cummings style for me..

As with any skill, there are various levels of ability and one can certainly develop a very nice looking Spencerian and relatively quickly at that. The greatest pen masters did in fact work for years to perfect their beautiful and elegant script, but the greatest masters in any field also spent years at it to develop their level of skill. Think of chess. One could learn to play a servicable and enjoyable game, relatively free of errors, fairly quickly, but top grandmaster level play is a matter of serious dedication over a period of years.

I used the copybook approach (the Mott Media reprints). This may not be best. Most people who learn Spencerian use and recommend Michael Sull's book. However, I have a deep and abiding interest in all things 19th century and that is why I chose to use the 19th century Platt R. Spencer copybooks.

Are you using a flex nib? To me, Spencerian is all about a flex nib, which for me looked like a long curve to develop the needed control for. otherwise the Spencerian letter shapes are not all that different from, say, Palmer. In fact, I have never figured out why Palmer was said to be an easier replacement for Spencerian, except for no need for a flex nib in Palmer.

I am not saying that Spencerian or Palmer is inherently more legible than a more italic style. I am saying that for me, and I am guessing for the average unskilled person like me, it is easier to keep legibility with a more italic style. Also, I guess that the loops and such that Spencerian and Palmer and other cursive styles have are not necessary and create more to have to put on paper and provide additional points at which mistakes/loss of control can take place. Also, I suppose, I see not reason for a school kid who knows how to make things like printed bs, gs, qs, ss, rs, etc., should have to master a new form of those letters that to me is often less distinct than the printed form with is just as serviceable.

I am curious as to how many folks who generally write in a Palmer cursive style actually use a true Palmer form for capital letters for F, T, and Q.

Actually, some of the Spencerian forms of capital Ts seem odd and kind of far from other forms of capital Ts to me.

Again, none of this is intended as a dis to Spencerian. I think it is "cool" for among other reasons its 19th century aspects, which interest me, just as they do you, and I am guessing a whole lot of other people around here.

For that matter, none of this is intended to be a dis to Palmer and similar styles either. I am far from an expert on this stuff and my handwriting is not going to be presented as a show piece by anyone, much less me. I just put a bit of thought and effort into trying to get my handwriting into some sort of reasonable shape starting around Christmas, and wanted to share some of my thinking based on what I had come up with.

As I think about it, if someone started off with a better Palmer-style handwriting than it seemed to me I had, brushing up that style rather than undertaking a more wholesale conversation might make unquestionable sense. Also, someone else can discount my early childhood trauma around learning Palmer! <g> Clearly YMMV!

I do think it is worthwhile kicking around on this forum what our various experiences have been in trying to improve our handwritings. And I suspect that no matter how good any of our handwritings get there will always be some little insights or nuances we might pick up to make it better or easier. I do find handwriting very hard!

The Knize said:

Are you using a flex nib? To me, Spencerian is all about a flex nib, which for me looked like a long curve to develop the needed control for. otherwise the Spencerian letter shapes are not all that different from, say, Palmer. In fact, I have never figured out why Palmer was said to be an easier replacement for Spencerian, except for no need for a flex nib in Palmer.

Click to expand...

Basically, this is the way I see it as well. But remember that those of us learning Spencerian coming from ball point pens do not have an experiential basis in shaded forms. Therefore, our first order of business is to learn the letter forms and this does not require a flex nib. Once the letter forms are learned, then one could begin work on the shadings which is what I am doing now. For learning the forms, I used a Nikko G nib. It is flexible, but still rather stiff. For the shadings, I will be switching to a Gillott 303 which is more flexible.

The Knize said:

I am curious as to how many folks who generally write in a Palmer cursive style actually use a true Palmer form for capital letters for F, T, and Q.

Click to expand...

I used to use the full meal deal capitals in Palmer, but the pressure of quick note taking in college forced me to abandon them in favor of printed caps.

The Knize said:

Again, none of this is intended as a dis to Spencerian. I think it is "cool" for among other reasons its 19th century aspects, which interest me, just as they do you, and I am guessing a whole lot of other people around here.

Click to expand...

(Third reply to the same post, but hey, it was lengthy.) I hope nobody is getting the impression that 19th century writers were all skilled penmen employing a beautiful Spencerian or Copperplate. Or that those like myself think they were. Any such fantasies can be quickly disabused by examining the handwriting of, say, Henry David Thoreau. Here's a sample:

http://thoreau.library.ucsb.edu/writings_handwritingP.html

No way. That's worse than mine at its worst.

Cynomys said:

(Third reply to the same post, but hey, it was lengthy.) I hope nobody is getting the impression that 19th century writers were all skilled penmen employing a beautiful Spencerian or Copperplate. Or that those like myself think they were. Any such fantasies can be quickly disabused by examining the handwriting of, say, Henry David Thoreau. Here's a sample:

http://thoreau.library.ucsb.edu/writings_handwritingP.html

Click to expand...

Cynomys said:

(Third reply to the same post, but hey, it was lengthy.) I hope nobody is getting the impression that 19th century writers were all skilled penmen employing a beautiful Spencerian or Copperplate. Or that those like myself think they were. Any such fantasies can be quickly disabused by examining the handwriting of, say, Henry David Thoreau. Here's a sample:

http://thoreau.library.ucsb.edu/writings_handwritingP.html

Click to expand...

That Thoreau example just made me feel a whole lot better about my poor penmanship.

emt88 said:

That Thoreau example just made me feel a whole lot better about my poor penmanship.

Click to expand...

Indeed, sir and also me.

Cynomys said:

I learned cursive (Palmer method) in elementary school in the 50s. After that, I always wrote in cursive, but over time many of the capitals became printed caps. Now I am in the process of learning Spencerian penmanship. So far, I have all the lower case letters down and will gradually add the capitals.

Click to expand...

Awesome! Dip pens, flexible-nibbed fountain pens or both?

August West said:

I print. I am not sure why I started as I was schooled in cursive. Perhaps my time in the Service is when I abandoned cursive.

Click to expand...

Ditto. Cursive through middle school, I transitioned to printing in high school and stayed with it because my penmanship has always been bad. It's hard enough for me to read my own writing, impossible for others.

Just wanted to revive this thread abut and say that the links to study Spencerian style has been a great resource.

I've been told recently that my hand writing stands out to a coworker.

Alacrity59 said:

The Palmer method of handwriting was very much about speed. . . not lifting the pen etc. I write more quickly than I can print. I took typing classes and thought I was pretty good at 40 words per minute but I've noticed a lot of amazingly faster people who can take notes on a computer in a meeting . . . I can do it by pen then type it in later . . . would be nice to not take that extra step.

Click to expand...

Not sure ... that extra step helps you to process the information. I always write notes during meetings, and type a report later. Typing also distracts me much more than writing does.

How many of us are able to take notes on a keyboard? I am terrible at it. I wish I had learned some kind of fast writing in school. There are methods out there that are not shorthand.

Always hand written notes. I find it stays in the head longer.
There was an article somewhere that stated written notes were processed better like eeyore says.

For those that are left handed, do you find writing cursive easier over handed or underhanded?

Agreed. Howsomever, today, my tremors were so bad I couldn't write at all--frustrated.

The Knize said:

How many of us are able to take notes on a keyboard? I am terrible at it. I wish I had learned some kind of fast writing in school. There are methods out there that are not shorthand.

Click to expand...

Written, overwriter left handed.

coyotewhisper said:

For those that are left handed, do you find writing cursive easier over handed or underhanded?

Click to expand...

I'll usually go over handed because that's comfortable for me. I try to pick pens that don't smear or I'm just extra careful about hand placement.