We are just getting started.....
.............. i would contribute more, but i have a ill family member that need my attention as of late.Gillette Single Rings with British Patent Numbers
- Thread starter GBinOZ
- Start date
We are just getting started.....
.............. i would contribute more, but i have a ill family member that need my attention as of late.- Thread starter
- #102
I have read and re-read the above threads. Some members are of the opinion that "G" stands for gold and others that it stands for "special". It is suggested that the razors conform to normal number sequences but prefixed by a "G". I interpret this to mean that if there was to be a letter prefix it is replaced by a "G". Just by reading these threads I have picked up on an additional 8 razors with the "G" prefix, with examples with US and British patents, and spread from 1905 to 1912+........and then Porter throws in an example with a "K" prefix.
I suggested to Porter in a PM that perhaps the "G" series is outside the brief of the Gillette England Dating Information Wiki and should be removed. Wouldn't it be better to have the non-1918 "G" series concentrated in it's own Wiki?
I suggested to Porter in a PM that perhaps the "G" series is outside the brief of the Gillette England Dating Information Wiki and should be removed. Wouldn't it be better to have the non-1918 "G" series concentrated in it's own Wiki?
Last edited:
It would, however it wouldn't do much for dating info if in fact the serials were in such a way that the normal letter prefix was replaced by a "G". That means we could have two gold/special razors with identical "G" serial numbers (say G123456) that were produced many years apart (1 being from the "no letter" years and one from the "C" years for example)
A "G" wiki could help us get an idea roughly when they stopped using the "G" prefix for special/gold sets. Do we have an idea? It seems like they only did it on the early sets. Does anyone have an idea what year those black cased gold smooth handle single ring sets were made? You posted a thread with one from Britain and the engraved one from the U.S. I now own that engraved U.S. one but there is nothing else on it besides the Nov. 15/04 patent date.
- Thread starter
- #104
We have three "G" examples in the Gillette England Dating Information Wiki at present. That Wiki started to try to work out a dating system for British patented razors. The special Gs won't necessarily help in that respect. Seems to me that to be consistent we either have to add the other G series to that Wiki, which would complicate its purpose, or start a fresh Wiki just for Gs.
There's definitely no sense in adding completely non-British razors to the British dating page. Starting a consolidated list of "G" razors on their own would be perfectly fine, but I wouldn't take the British-linked ones off of the British list just yet as there may well have been different uses of the "G" prefix over time. They did it, for example with the Canadian plant using the "C" prefix in their early days and then the Boston plant using it again in their own normal series.
- Thread starter
- #106
I am having some logical difficulties here. It was decided that British patented razors with A and B serial numbers would not be included on the British Dating page as they were non-British manufacture. But no-one has suggested that ABC razors were made in Britain, so I feel that they fall into the same category as the A and B.
As for Achim's G 5031, if we assume there is no mismatch with the box then the G would have most likely have replaced an A or B, and then we are back to the same earlier decision.
While looking through the above threads I noted a razor here: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/79404-Different-British-Old-Style
It is similar to G 5031 and owned by cutting_edge. It has a British patent and a serial number of G632640 and a date on the front of the case of 1912. How do we determine what letter the G replaced - E, F or H, or perhaps more probably C as it follows the Boston convention of putting the patent on the outer barrel and the serial number on the inner barrel.
While the G prefix was re-used in 1918, as were E, F and H, what distinguishes the "Special G razors" is that they appear to have the early Boston convention of Outer/Inner barrel for the Patent/Ser# even after Boston changed to Outer/Guard.
Despite these reservations, I am OK with retaining the G series in the British page for the present, but think that if we do that then G632640 should be added.
I think that maybe I should remove E102560 for lack of details. I saw this somewhere but haven't been able to find the page again.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #107
I have just updated the Wiki to include, in the remarks column, some details of the boxes in which the razors were found. While this is not a major factor it can be a minor guide if it appears that the box is not likely to be a miss match.
We still have only a small sample of data, so anyone who owns one of these razors - your contribution would be highly valued.
We still have only a small sample of data, so anyone who owns one of these razors - your contribution would be highly valued.
- Thread starter
- #108
The Single Ring shown on the Mr-Razor site with the serial number of H711612 has been perplexing me for some time. Why does an H series razor have a Script box when other H series with low numbers have later style metal boxes with later logos? And why does Achim date this razor and the G 5031 set as 1906-1908?
Then the answer appeared to become obvious. The H prefix of this razor is observing the same principle as the G prefix on the 5031. The G series of this time were a special series that added a G to, or replaced a letter with, a G. So G 5031 would replace an A and be dated 1907, and the H would be added to the non letter prefixed serial numbers to give a date of 1906 for an early razor supplied to Europe from the US prior to the introduction of letter prefixes. Score 2 from 2 for Achim.
So why the H prefix at this time in history? Maybe it was because it followed G, or maybe it stood for Hamburg, the location of the importer named Grell at the time? So what about the other razors in the series with the H prefix, much lower numbers and all with the leading zeroes signature. Could it be that, having established the letter H for supply of razors from the US to Hamburg, then razors in Germany, either produced by Leicester for the German market or produced in Berlin, retained the H prefix? One of the early threads on these razors was started by ERVARGUSNY, who pointed out that the blades accompanying his razor were made in Germany and raised the question "Could this be a German set?".
There have been several objections raised to the speculation that razors may have been produced in Paris and Berlin.
One points out that Adams is the only source that says that razors were made in Paris and Berlin. Are there sources that actually say they were not?
Another raised the very valid question of, if razors were made in Paris and Berlin why would they use a British patent rather than their own. But then razors started appearing with the serial number on the outer barrel in boxes with the British patent statement and the US patent augmented with an "N" suffix. Why would Leicester, after establishing their own patent, switch from making razors for the European market with their own British patent to making them with an augmented US patent?
A third objection suggests that if razors were made in Paris and Berlin, an example would have been found by now. If patent problems in France and Germany complicated their using their own patents, are the F and H series the examples we are looking for? If Leicester was making the F series for the French market and attaching the GinD to comply with French requirement or custom, then why do we see a GinD on an H series razor. Could it have been made in Berlin for the French market?
All of the above is speculation based on a small data set and only aimed at prompting discussion. However, the volume of data contribution so far indicates that there are either very few of these razors in the hands of B&B members or that the interest level on this topic is not all that high, so what we have may be all we will have.
Achim, if you're following this thread, you are in Germany and seem to had nailed 2 out of 2 with dating the razors mentioned above. Are you in a position to offer an opinion on the E, F and H series, and whether you think there may have been razors actually produced in Berlin prior to WWI?
Then the answer appeared to become obvious. The H prefix of this razor is observing the same principle as the G prefix on the 5031. The G series of this time were a special series that added a G to, or replaced a letter with, a G. So G 5031 would replace an A and be dated 1907, and the H would be added to the non letter prefixed serial numbers to give a date of 1906 for an early razor supplied to Europe from the US prior to the introduction of letter prefixes. Score 2 from 2 for Achim.
So why the H prefix at this time in history? Maybe it was because it followed G, or maybe it stood for Hamburg, the location of the importer named Grell at the time? So what about the other razors in the series with the H prefix, much lower numbers and all with the leading zeroes signature. Could it be that, having established the letter H for supply of razors from the US to Hamburg, then razors in Germany, either produced by Leicester for the German market or produced in Berlin, retained the H prefix? One of the early threads on these razors was started by ERVARGUSNY, who pointed out that the blades accompanying his razor were made in Germany and raised the question "Could this be a German set?".
There have been several objections raised to the speculation that razors may have been produced in Paris and Berlin.
One points out that Adams is the only source that says that razors were made in Paris and Berlin. Are there sources that actually say they were not?
Another raised the very valid question of, if razors were made in Paris and Berlin why would they use a British patent rather than their own. But then razors started appearing with the serial number on the outer barrel in boxes with the British patent statement and the US patent augmented with an "N" suffix. Why would Leicester, after establishing their own patent, switch from making razors for the European market with their own British patent to making them with an augmented US patent?
A third objection suggests that if razors were made in Paris and Berlin, an example would have been found by now. If patent problems in France and Germany complicated their using their own patents, are the F and H series the examples we are looking for? If Leicester was making the F series for the French market and attaching the GinD to comply with French requirement or custom, then why do we see a GinD on an H series razor. Could it have been made in Berlin for the French market?
All of the above is speculation based on a small data set and only aimed at prompting discussion. However, the volume of data contribution so far indicates that there are either very few of these razors in the hands of B&B members or that the interest level on this topic is not all that high, so what we have may be all we will have.
Achim, if you're following this thread, you are in Germany and seem to had nailed 2 out of 2 with dating the razors mentioned above. Are you in a position to offer an opinion on the E, F and H series, and whether you think there may have been razors actually produced in Berlin prior to WWI?
Not sure where this lettering issue is going. The "G" dated and those around it were the WW1 production. Gillette made what 3 million razors for the war effort! Sure that some of those stamps look differently.
Any way everyone knows that the '04's were/are made in Germany!!
Any way everyone knows that the '04's were/are made in Germany!!
The Leicester plant was completed in 1909:
I've just tweaked the table on the wiki page a bit to capture the razors with the "G-inside-square" rather than the "G-inside-D" mark distinctly. There were a couple there in the "F" series section, George, where you'd given them a "Yes" for that column, but I couldn't verify from the available photos which mark was present -- in one case I think I can make out the existence of the mark and just can't be sure which it is, but in the other there doesn't seem to be a photo showing the underside at all. If you've got more info there to add, that would be good. I'd be surprised if either one didn't have the square mark, though, given their other markings.
Also, regarding the possibility of razor production during this time in France and Germany: I wouldn't say that I believe that they were definitely not produced there, just that I don't see enough yet to say that they definitely were. That's where I'd like something more than just that mention by Adams. It's possible that he just assumed that if they were making blades they'd also have been making razors, or it's possible that he had actual source material saying that they did. I'd love to know either way.
We've similarly been handed down the notion that the serial suffixes "V" and "W" were used during the New Improved era for razors made in Spain and France, respectively, but I don't know that anyone's actually seen an example of either. Am I wrong there, have we just been incredibly unlucky so far, or was the information passed down incorrect?
Incidentally, if anyone does have a New Improved with a "V" or "W" series number, or even if you just have a high-numbered "Y" or "Z" series number, make sure you post it here in this thread where we're trying to get an idea for the length of the non-US series.
Also, regarding the possibility of razor production during this time in France and Germany: I wouldn't say that I believe that they were definitely not produced there, just that I don't see enough yet to say that they definitely were. That's where I'd like something more than just that mention by Adams. It's possible that he just assumed that if they were making blades they'd also have been making razors, or it's possible that he had actual source material saying that they did. I'd love to know either way.
We've similarly been handed down the notion that the serial suffixes "V" and "W" were used during the New Improved era for razors made in Spain and France, respectively, but I don't know that anyone's actually seen an example of either. Am I wrong there, have we just been incredibly unlucky so far, or was the information passed down incorrect?
Incidentally, if anyone does have a New Improved with a "V" or "W" series number, or even if you just have a high-numbered "Y" or "Z" series number, make sure you post it here in this thread where we're trying to get an idea for the length of the non-US series.
Speculation is part of the fun of this hobby for me, but I also like to find corroborating sources. Here is mention from May 1908 in Dun's Review, vol. 11 no. 3, p65 that caught my eye, and might shed some light or spark more discussion:
That the popularity of the Gillette safety razor is not alone confined to the United States is emphasized by the fact that factories for the output of this most useful device have already been erected in France and Canada while a plant will soon be installed in Germany as well as one of a similar size in England.
This lines up with what the Gillette Blade and other sources tell us about Montreal (April 1906) and Leicester (late 1908 or early 1909). The mention of France (late 1905 or early 1906) may be blurring the line between razor holders and razor blades, or it may be accurate. Perhaps so is the mention of a German plant in the future, as of mid-1908. That seems to contradict various 1908 Gillette ads, which claims that "factories have been established in Canada, England, France, and Germany" (http://books.google.com/books?id=ikAtAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA33). Given what other sources say about Leicester that seems overeager, but marketing often anticipates facts. Or the reporter who wrote "Industrial Progress" could have garbled whatever the company representative told him.
That the popularity of the Gillette safety razor is not alone confined to the United States is emphasized by the fact that factories for the output of this most useful device have already been erected in France and Canada while a plant will soon be installed in Germany as well as one of a similar size in England.
This lines up with what the Gillette Blade and other sources tell us about Montreal (April 1906) and Leicester (late 1908 or early 1909). The mention of France (late 1905 or early 1906) may be blurring the line between razor holders and razor blades, or it may be accurate. Perhaps so is the mention of a German plant in the future, as of mid-1908. That seems to contradict various 1908 Gillette ads, which claims that "factories have been established in Canada, England, France, and Germany" (http://books.google.com/books?id=ikAtAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA33). Given what other sources say about Leicester that seems overeager, but marketing often anticipates facts. Or the reporter who wrote "Industrial Progress" could have garbled whatever the company representative told him.
- Thread starter
- #113
The E,F,G and H series razors from 1918 were produced in the USA and the letter prefixes were the second use. These series were also used for British patented razors produced prior to 1915.
- Thread starter
- #114
Hi Porter,
Regarding those 2 examples from eBay, I labelled them "Yes" because one is, as you say, indistinct and the other shows in the title "(G)", and since this did not refer to the serial prefix which was F, and therefore could reasonably have expected to have the GinD (or square) I put it in as a less descriptive "Yes". But I agree, "Yes?" is more appropriate. As far as my F series set, it is also a square. I didn't upload the photo at the time because of the upload limit, but here it is:
I thought the may be some pattern revealed by differentiating between the G in a square or a D, but so far I can't detect any pattern.
I'm not convinced that Paris and Berlin produced razors either, and from Achim's subtle reply I infer that he feels that razors were produced in Leicester and not France or Germany. However, if that possibility is excluded then the puzzling "N" augmentation and the GinD on the H razor need some explanation or conjecture.
I take your point regarding the "V" and "W" examples. But if a "V" or "W" razor were to appear, would that provide proof in itself, or would they need to be stamped with the appropriate Spanish and French patents. As far as I have read, the E-H serial prefixes that are the subject of this thread have only come to the attention of collectors relatively recently. As I have asked before, what would a razor made in France or Germay prior to WWI need to look like? Does it necessarily have to have the appropriate patents from those countries?
I am glad that discussion on the topic has been revived.
Cheers
George
Last edited:
No worries. I'd already flagged yours as a square one from the photos on the eBay auction.
Well, the one thing of note is that all the ones with the US patent date seem to also have the square mark, and the one early "F" series one on the list that has the British patent number instead has the D mark.
Well, in that case I would expect a "V" or "W" series New Improved to also have a "Made in..." inscription, but I was more bringing that up to illustrate things that get passed around as "common knowledge" that don't necessarily have very much behind them to validate them -- that could be because there wasn't anything to begin with or it could also be that what was behind them has been lost over time.
I don't know that we really even know what the local legal requirements would have been at the time for markings, etc. Gillette's practice elsewhere seems to have been to mark the local patent date/number, but France's patent system was very different from what I've read, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Patents were essentially more like registration of trademarks here in the States. The government didn't warrant them even as being novel, just logged the registration presumably to establish a fixed reference in time should a future dispute arise. From having seen other French-made products from a similar timeframe, though, I would think that it would make sense for them to have used the "Brevete S.G.D.G." marking -- which we've definitely seen on their blades.
I would think the same for a German-made razor. I don't know that it would have been a legal requirement, but I would still expect it to carry the D.R.P. mark. From what I've read, apparently the fees for registering a patent in Germany were phenomenally high, so getting the patent but then not signalling it would just seem odd.
- Thread starter
- #116
Speculation is part of the fun of this hobby for me, but I also like to find corroborating sources. Here is mention from May 1908 in Dun's Review, vol. 11 no. 3, p65 that caught my eye, and might shed some light or spark more discussion:
That the popularity of the Gillette safety razor is not alone confined to the United States is emphasized by the fact that factories for the output of this most useful device have already been erected in France and Canada while a plant will soon be installed in Germany as well as one of a similar size in England.
This lines up with what the Gillette Blade and other sources tell us about Montreal (April 1906) and Leicester (late 1908 or early 1909). The mention of France (late 1905 or early 1906) may be blurring the line between razor holders and razor blades, or it may be accurate. Perhaps so is the mention of a German plant in the future, as of mid-1908. That seems to contradict various 1908 Gillette ads, which claims that "factories have been established in Canada, England, France, and Germany" (http://books.google.com/books?id=ikAtAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA33). Given what other sources say about Leicester that seems overeager, but marketing often anticipates facts. Or the reporter who wrote "Industrial Progress" could have garbled whatever the company representative told him.
Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it. - LOTR.
The terrible "Ifs" accumulate - Winston Churchill.
The wording above seems to suggest that the "Gillette safety razor" were already being output in France and Canada and that soon there would be a plant installed "in Germany as well as one of a similar size in England". We are sure about razor production in Canada and England but we are doubt about a production in Germany in a plant of similar size to England? We can wonder if the author of this article actually meant blades rather than razors, whether the anticipation actually exceeded the participation, and whether Adams got it wrong or meant something else. But maybe they didn't? When it says "razor", aren't we speculating to conclude that they might really mean something else?
OK, I was looking through my collection and I've got another strange anomaly for the list: a standard silver-plated Single Ring with no markings but the "BR.PAT.No.28,763 OF '02" inscription on the outer barrel and the serial number 558440 on the inner barrel -- very similar to Achim's smooth-barrel gold Single Ring in its markings, just without the "G" prefix. The case that it came in is also a remarkable one. It's a script logo case, but instead of the lid snap being on a small leather strap, the case lid has a flap that runs its entire width. It also has, affixed exactly over top of the script "Gillette" logo, a ribbon banner for who I presume to be the original retailer, Dr. M. Albersheim, who was a German perfumer.
A quick picture with my phone here since it's such an odd fish:
So we're left with a razor that was almost certainly made in Boston, but was stamped with the British patent number, and appears to have been sold through a German retailer. Not to mention the unconventional case closure. Very confusing...
A quick picture with my phone here since it's such an odd fish:
So we're left with a razor that was almost certainly made in Boston, but was stamped with the British patent number, and appears to have been sold through a German retailer. Not to mention the unconventional case closure. Very confusing...
- Thread starter
- #118
"Gillette's practice elsewhere seems to have been to mark the local patent date/number" - But the F series razors that are presumed to be made at Leicester for the French market are not marked with the local date/number.
I have only looked at the early blade examples on Achim's site and the blades I received with my F series set and they have all 4 patents on them. How can we speculate that they were made in the French factory? Are there examples with only the French patent?
The historical focus seems to have always been much more on the blades than on the handles. You just have to look to the subtitle for that section there: "Making 150,000 Safety Razors a Day." That's even probably a bit of an exaggeration of what their blade production would have been at the time, but they wouldn't have been producing anything like that number of handles.
There's also the fact that at that time the whole vocabulary for these things would have still been fairly new and flexible, considering that the image in most people's heads when you said "razor" would have still been a straight razor.
- Thread starter
- #120
OK, I was looking through my collection and I've got another strange anomaly for the list: a standard silver-plated Single Ring with no markings but the "BR.PAT.No.28,763 OF '02" inscription on the outer barrel and the serial number 558440 on the inner barrel -- very similar to Achim's smooth-barrel gold Single Ring in its markings, just without the "G" prefix. The case that it came in is also a remarkable one. It's a script logo case, but instead of the lid snap being on a small leather strap, the case lid has a flap that runs its entire width. It also has, affixed exactly over top of the script "Gillette" logo, a ribbon banner for who I presume to be the original retailer, Dr. M. Albersheim, who was a German perfumer.
A quick picture with my phone here since it's such an odd fish:
So we're left with a razor that was almost certainly made in Boston, but was stamped with the British patent number, and appears to have been sold through a German retailer. Not to mention the unconventional case closure. Very confusing...
We seem to be engaging in syncronised typing.
My reading of the threads regarding the G prefix seemed to conclude that the G initially only stood for Gold and was only later expanded to include "special". Wouldn't this fall into the same category as the A and B series that were marked with the British patent, only this one is from 1906? The box is a different puzzlement - more thinking time required
Similar threads
