Professors professing--update

[Bubarubu]

So the kerfluffle over the professor advocating the abortion of fetuses with Down Syndrome went more public than our well-shorn corner of the Intertubes. The UNC paper picked up the story and an LTE. Inside Higher Education (second item from the bottom) noted and linked to the student paper's coverage of the situation.In both cases, the outrage is aimed at the content of the professor's opinion and no one mentions any threat to or concern for their grades.

[ScottS]

If you don't discuss the ethics of prenatal testing in an embryology class, where would you discuss it? Note that when the real quote came out, by the way, it was restricted to an early-as-possible direct test for the duplicate chromosome. None of the suppositions that the prof would advocate late-term abortions based on tests with high false positives were true.

[TimmyBoston]

This topic has already gotten out of hand once, I don't want to see it happen again. Fair warning, guys.

[Howard Newell]

The professor did state that he wouldn't be able to grade fairly if people didn't see his viewpoint. I know because I was actually there in the class. I'm meeting with someone from the Biology department to get this problem resolved.

[Frank7580]

I admire your perseverance Howard.

I also don't doubt your categorization of the events mentioned. Having grown up in a town neighboring Chapel Hill (& graduating from NC state ), this event seems consistent with the opinions that usually come from UNC professors. Hang in there...

[Mr. Gillette]

Hey...they're PROFESSORS...what do they know? It usually took the Skipper to provide the manpower and Gilligan to find a more workable solution to get anything done.

Think about it...the Professor could make a battery out of a coconut and a couple of pieces of grass, but he couldn't figure out how to patch the boat?

If you want to think like a professor, find the biggest, deepest, heaviest book you can find, pick a page at random, tear it out, and clip out a 2" wide section, exactly 5" from the top of the page. Re-write the words on the page 16 times, prepare an outline, put on your robe, your cap and your hood, maybe grab your scepter if you're really cool...and start talking about it.

But then...what do I know?

[tony mack]

I admire your perseverance Howard.

I also don't doubt your categorization of the events mentioned. Having grown up in a town neighboring Chapel Hill (& graduating from NC state ), this event seems consistent with the opinions that usually come from UNC professors. Hang in there...

As quoted in the paper: "During a lecture, Albert Harris said: 'In my opinion, the moral thing for older mothers to do is to have amniocentesis, as soon during pregnancy as is safe for the fetus, test whether placental cells have a third chromosome number 21, and abort the fetus if it does. The brain is the last organ to become functional.' "

The idea that a professor would advocate what is standard medical practice throughout the developed world is shocking.

T

[rabidpotatochip]

The professor did state that he wouldn't be able to grade fairly if people didn't see his viewpoint. I know because I was actually there in the class. I'm meeting with someone from the Biology department to get this problem resolved.

There. The discussion is finished.

Seriously, I don't think there is more to the discussion than what was said there. Ethics of the lesson material aside, the professor shouldn't have said that he would look unfavorably upon people disagreeing with his viewpoint; it's a good thing that steps are being taken against it.

[tony mack]

There. The discussion is finished.

Seriously, I don't think there is more to the discussion than what was said there. Ethics of the lesson material aside, the professor shouldn't have said that he would look unfavorably upon people disagreeing with his viewpoint; it's a good thing that steps are being taken against it.

If you read the article in the campus paper no mention is made of the professor making threats to students. Nor did he flippantly make his remarks. The paper quotes him as saying, "It's this terrible decision," Harris [the professor] said. "Ninety percent of people in this position have an abortion."

It would seem that a small minority of students were deeply offended that he brought up the discussion and passed on the information that most people abort Down's syndrome babies, and as well, shared his personal opinion that he feels this is the right thing to do.

If students can't handle a frank medical discussion in a biology class they are in the wrong field. That some feel victimized by this seems additional proof that America has become a nation of whiners.

T

[rabidpotatochip]

If you read the article in the campus paper no mention is made of the professor making threats to students. Nor did he flippantly make his remarks. The paper quotes him as saying, "It's this terrible decision," Harris [the professor] said. "Ninety percent of people in this position have an abortion."

It would seem that a small minority of students were deeply offended that he brought up the discussion and passed on the information that most people abort Down's syndrome babies, and as well, shared his personal opinion that he feels this is the right thing to do.

If students can't handle a frank medical discussion in a biology class they are in the wrong field. That some feel victimized by this seems additional proof that America has become a nation of whiners.

T

Everyone in that classroom is welcome to think what they want on the subject(s) brought up, since it's a biology class it makes sense that they'd discuss abortion and other controversial things. As I understand it from the previous thread however, and I'm willing to be proven wrong here, the student's "opinion" and grade were stated as being directly related and that's what I disagree with.

[tony mack]

Everyone in that classroom is welcome to think what they want on the subject(s) brought up, since it's a biology class it makes sense that they'd discuss abortion and other controversial things. As I understand it from the previous thread however, and I'm willing to be proven wrong here, the student's "opinion" and grade were stated as being directly related and that's what I disagree with.

The newspaper article quoted one student who was outraged by the professor's discussion, but even this student did not state the professor threatened to base grades on the student's opinions.

The guy starting this thread made this claim but the campus newspaper does not support what he says. Maybe the newspaper account is inaccurate, but given the fact that controversy sells, you would think if the professor made such unreasonable or unethical demands on his students, the newspaper would have found someone to bear witness to the injustice. There were after all 140 students in the class.

But all we have is some guy with a pseudonym on a shaving forum expressing his outrage that a professor advocated aborting fetuses with Down's Syndrome, which is standard medical practice in the developed world.

I don't believe the guy who started the thread. In my opinion, he's either deeply confused or deliberately misstating the facts. If he's so aggrieved why is he bringing this up in a shaving forum? Why doesn't he martial his facts, obtain corroborating evidence or witnesses, and present these to the newspaper that has already covered the story?

This is just the wrong place to bring up this kind of story.

T

[boboakalfb]

But all we have is some guy with a pseudonym on a shaving forum ...

Valid point...there are always going to be members on forums who aren't who they profess to be.

This is just the wrong place to bring up this kind of story.

As long as it is discussed in a gentlemanly manor, I see no problem with it's existence. Some people like to discuss topics such as these while others don't want to come near them.

[theperfectstorm]

If you want to think like a professor, find the biggest, deepest, heaviest book you can find, pick a page at random, tear it out, and clip out a 2" wide section, exactly 5" from the top of the page. Re-write the words on the page 16 times, prepare an outline, put on your robe, your cap and your hood, maybe grab your scepter if you're really cool...and start talking about it.

But then...what do I know?

I spent years of my life getting my 3 advanced degrees, I worked hard and I earned them. The main thing I learned was how little I knew and how much harder I needed to work and how much more I needed to learn.

I left a lucrative career as a contractor and made the decision to go into teaching because I wanted to serve--not because I wanted to make money or lecture from the mountaintop. I am too old and too fat to be a cop or a soldier or an Air Marshall, but I thought I could serve my state and my community by helping others to get educated and achieve their goals.

Stupid me. I thought I was doing right.

This thread, more than anything I have seen recently, demonstrates the basic truth of American education:

People get the professors and the education they deserve.
If you have a problem, look to the consumer--not the provider.

[Mr. Gillette]

I spent years of my life getting my 3 advanced degrees, I worked hard and I earned them. The main thing I learned was how little I knew and how much harder I needed to work and how much more I needed to learn.

I left a lucrative career as a contractor and made the decision to go into teaching because I wanted to serve--not because I wanted to make money or lecture from the mountaintop. I am too old and too fat to be a cop or a soldier or an Air Marshall, but I thought I could serve my state and my community by helping others to get educated and achieve their goals.

Stupid me. I thought I was doing right.

This thread, more than anything I have seen recently, demonstrates the basic truth of American education:

People get the professors and the education they deserve.
If you have a problem, look to the consumer--not the provider.

Please accept my humor in the spirit it was given...I did the same thing-- had my stint at teaching, and realized that the folks who made the rules were the left-brained-linear-thinking-play-by-the book and don't think kinds of people, (at least in public school education). I jumped ship and went to work for myself as a freelance curmudgeon.

Education is NEVER wasted...it's the only way we truly know how little we know. My hat's off to anyone out there in the trenches who is still able to do it!

[BMWRider]

People get the professors and the education they deserve. If you have a problem, look to the consumer--not the provider.

I love this and believe it is true. I remember when I was a senior (I was an adult learner in my 30s) taking a class on film. It was the first time I had a "fun class" in a long time and was really looking forward to it. We were to be in class at 6:00 PM and the professor made it clear that tardiness was not an option. Ten minutes into the first class, the professor was still at his desk taking care of the administrative nonsense that you have to go through with a college class. He had not spoken to the class as a whole. I took a calculated risk, raised my hand and got his attention. He called on me and I tapped my watch and said, Professor, I paid good money for this class, and I have been here for ten minutes and not learned a single thing. At that point the class went silent, he looked at me for about a minute, I looked right back at him, and then he burst out laughing. It was a great class, and I earned an "A." I see the professor two times a year and just spent New Years Eve with he and his wife. He is a good man, and a great teacher. Years later he still says that my class was his favorite, and that he has never had so much fun teaching. I think you deal with this directly with the prof, they are human too. If you have run into the 1% (1% of everything is bad) the college will deal with it if you let them know.

[moses]

But then...what do I know?

No offense, but about this, apparently not much.

I've met my share of professors, and had the privilege of being friends with a few. By and large, they are a bunch of good people who are very dedicated to their research and helping their students learn. Sure, I've run into a couple who didn't seem to give a darn, and a couple who were arrogant and thought they had all the answers. But they were a small minority. Most were humble enough to know they didn't have all the answers, but just doing their part to learn more, and teach what they knew at the same time. In general, at least those in the sciences and especially engineering, could have been making triple the money in the private sector, but were in academics instead because they believed in doing something good and spreading knowledge.

For the record, my father was a professor. Taught engineering for over twenty years to thousands of students. And in turn taught me and awful lot about the importance of service.

So personally, I don't particularly appreciate seeing professors run down as a group.

-Mo

[BMWRider]

I jumped ship and went to work for myself as a freelance curmudgeon.

Where do I go to apply for this job? I want it, and I know I am probably overqualified. Are you looking to expand the business. Maybe you need an assistant curmudgeon?

[castlecraver]

Howard N,

I don't really want to enter too deeply into the discussion here in the interest of my blood pressure and the rapport I wish to uphold with folks here, being both an academic and someone with strong personal feelings on the offending opinion.

But if I may ask a question just for clarification: In what way might the professor be introduced to your opinion on this issue? Do you suspect he would ask a question pertaining to that issue on an exam? It would seem like an awfully inappropriate question, by its nature far more ethics-based than anything having to do with the process of embryonic development. Does your professor often place these sorts of questions on exams? Is it actually a legitimate focus of the course, or perhaps just philosophical chest-thumping by an opinionated and insensitive teacher?

[Mr. Gillette]

No offense, but about this, apparently not much.

I've met my share of professors, and had the privilege of being friends with a few. By and large, they are a bunch of good people who are very dedicated to their research and helping their students learn. Sure, I've run into a couple who didn't seem to give a darn, and a couple who were arrogant and thought they had all the answers. But they were a small minority. Most were humble enough to know they didn't have all the answers, but just doing their part to learn more, and teach what they knew at the same time. In general, at least those in the sciences and especially engineering, could have been making triple the money in the private sector, but were in academics instead because they believed in doing something good and spreading knowledge.

For the record, my father was a professor. Taught engineering for over twenty years to thousands of students. And in turn taught me and awful lot about the importance of service.

So personally, I don't particularly appreciate seeing professors run down as a group.

-Mo

You're entitled to your opinion...Mo, as always and respectfully. I'm all for spreading knowledge, and, to be fair--- these guys are rarely paid what they are worth.

Just some misplaced humor-- although keep in mind, in MY discipline (if you can call it one, Music and Education) I've had my share of folks analzying the structure of the pattern of the raindrops, while at the same time questioning why their shirt is getting wet.

I meant no offense...and as I said, what do I know?

I must also keep my feelings toward "professional educators" who become administrators separate from those who pursue knowledge wherever the pursuit may lead-- and I must keep my personal opinions of my own son, a second year TA at a Big Ten institution whose stated goal is to duck responsibility as long as possible by piling up student loans and continuing his educational path-- I must keep these prejudices out of my thoughts.

KUDOS, Moses, to those in your circle who do it right, and Kudos to your father. My father was a farmer, and a damn good one-- but there are many poor/hack farmers out there, corporate farms, and the like. I have no problem seeing them take a hit now and then.

Thanks for making me think...I retract, therefore, my statements other than the fact that I really CANNOT understand why the Professor couldn't fix the boat and get those folks off that island.

[ScottS]

The professor did state that he wouldn't be able to grade fairly if people didn't see his viewpoint. I know because I was actually there in the class. I'm meeting with someone from the Biology department to get this problem resolved.

My bet is that this occurred some time after some folks were (inappropriately) riding him pretty hard.