I can confirm a properly perfect honed coti edge is just as good and shave ready as any razor I've used. You just gotta wine and dine a coti first before she gives you her best.
Mark
After a Coticule?
- Thread starter jgkeegan
- Start date
Mark
- Thread starter
- #43
I twice rehoned (because I didn't like the way the first time looked in the scope) and will shave with it soon.
It looked pretty good this time. I am hoping it shaves as well as it looks.
It looked pretty good this time. I am hoping it shaves as well as it looks.
- Thread starter
- #44
My hope was not realized. It looked ok in the scope but the shave was so so at best.
I'm going to hone another razor with synthetics and the finish on the coti to see if that edge compares favorably with the same honing process and finishing on a surgical black Arkie.
Then I may try one more time for a full coticule hone.
I'm going to hone another razor with synthetics and the finish on the coti to see if that edge compares favorably with the same honing process and finishing on a surgical black Arkie.
Then I may try one more time for a full coticule hone.
What about using the BBW side if your coti (if you own a natural combo, that is)? I've had good results doing the final dilucot laps on the BBW with a very light slurry.
- Thread starter
- #46
Here is a belated update and plan for the short term.
I shaved off a regular synthetic hone and coticule finish (water only, weight of blade on coti) to compare it with the same process on the same razor honed with synthetics and finished with an Arkie.
Lousy shave. I think the coticule took too much off the edge. It shaved all right but nowhere near as smooth nor close as the Arkie (or NanoCloth) finishes.
I expect there is a fair amount of user error with the coticule.
I'm not giving up yet.
I'll do my 4th full coticule hone soon and see where that takes me.
(A dear friend who switched from coticules to Jnats told me it took him 20 tries before he got a decent shave from a coticule so I don't feel too badly.)
--james
I shaved off a regular synthetic hone and coticule finish (water only, weight of blade on coti) to compare it with the same process on the same razor honed with synthetics and finished with an Arkie.
Lousy shave. I think the coticule took too much off the edge. It shaved all right but nowhere near as smooth nor close as the Arkie (or NanoCloth) finishes.
I expect there is a fair amount of user error with the coticule.
I'm not giving up yet.
I'll do my 4th full coticule hone soon and see where that takes me.
(A dear friend who switched from coticules to Jnats told me it took him 20 tries before he got a decent shave from a coticule so I don't feel too badly.)
--james
I've found that getting a good coticule edge is very hit-or-miss as well. Each acts differently, each requires a different slurry/dilute progression...
More often than not, extra stropping turns a mediocre coticule edge into an excellent one.
I've gotta say, though - when you get it right, its just as good as my thuringian or Jnat edge.
More often than not, extra stropping turns a mediocre coticule edge into an excellent one.
I've gotta say, though - when you get it right, its just as good as my thuringian or Jnat edge.
I've used the N12k, C12K, BBW, and Coti with oil instead of water.
Best results have been simply a Unicot... standard Dilucot followed by a polishing set on water with a single layer of tape.
Edge lasts for 6 months on my Wacker and ATG under the nose is like butter.
Best results have been simply a Unicot... standard Dilucot followed by a polishing set on water with a single layer of tape.
Edge lasts for 6 months on my Wacker and ATG under the nose is like butter.
James, I have tried the 12K SS after the Coti and also .3 CrOx on balsa. Did a couple of times and although the final edge came out sharp and nice it simply lost the famed Coticule feel. Now I like to finish my razors under running water only with a Coti stone. Edges come out keen and buttery smooth.
- Thread starter
- #50
Hi Marco. We haven't talked in a while. Nice to see you here.
I have avoided using the 12K SS and the .3 CVrOx on Nanocloth fearing I would lose the edge I wanted to try.
Less what to me is excessive stropping (I am a minimalist in that area, sometimes doing 5 linen and 10-20 leather, the latter only in a last ditch effort to keep an edge for one more shave), I've learned several different things here. I think for my next coticule hone I'll try the Unicot... standard Dilucot method and try to do a better job than I did the first few times.
As someone who has worked in technology most of my life, I beginning to wonder if I am looking for something that isn't there. Me strong preference is for sharp edges; edges from a 15K Shapton Pro or from film or sprays going down to .125 and lower. My dream is to maintain most of the sharpness I hone to while adding some smoothness which is an elusive quality.
A few months ago, a friend send me a razor honed on a Jnat and I was astonished at the smoothness of the save. While it was somewhat less sharp than the edges I have been shaving with, the smoothness more than made up for it.
Thus began a long series of emails ending up with him loaning me a coticule and slurry stone for me to try.
This thread details my results, or lack of them so far.
When I try the next coticule hone, which will be fairly soon, I'll be sure to post the results to this thread.
I guess having picked up honing with other abrasives almost from the first hone, I didn't expect that a coticule would present me with problems. I suppose that's not fair having only honed with one three times, so I'm going to bang away on it some more.
For starting out, doing Unicot is the easiest way to get an edge without having to worry too much about details as it is pretty straightforward.
Step 1: Establish bevel on milky slurry, half-strokes in sets of 30 on each side until the razor shaves arm hair easily (as many sets as necessary)
Step 2: Add a splash of water to slurry, do 30 X-strokes (to make sure you established the bevel)
Step 3: Rinse razor (not coticule), apply a layer of tape, add a generous splash of water to the hone
Step 4: Perform 30 accurate X-strokes, not much pressure needed.
Step 5: Rinse razor and hone, do 50 careful X-strokes on water only, no added pressure
Step 6: Remove tape, dry razor, strop 60 strokes on clean fabric, 60 strokes on clean leather
You should be good to go. Just make sure the bevel shaves arm hair easily at skin level. For what it's worth, I sometimes perform steps 3-6 on a razor that has gone through a full dilucot. It results in an edge that is just a bit sharper.
Step 1: Establish bevel on milky slurry, half-strokes in sets of 30 on each side until the razor shaves arm hair easily (as many sets as necessary)
Step 2: Add a splash of water to slurry, do 30 X-strokes (to make sure you established the bevel)
Step 3: Rinse razor (not coticule), apply a layer of tape, add a generous splash of water to the hone
Step 4: Perform 30 accurate X-strokes, not much pressure needed.
Step 5: Rinse razor and hone, do 50 careful X-strokes on water only, no added pressure
Step 6: Remove tape, dry razor, strop 60 strokes on clean fabric, 60 strokes on clean leather
You should be good to go. Just make sure the bevel shaves arm hair easily at skin level. For what it's worth, I sometimes perform steps 3-6 on a razor that has gone through a full dilucot. It results in an edge that is just a bit sharper.
That is a very good synopsis, though I really discourage the recommendation of a specific number of strokes at any level, other than "x number of strokes as many sets as needed", particularly when discussing the procedure with someone new to honing in general, and unfamiliar with Coticules. It is too easy for the new honer to end up like the guy who buy's Lynn's DVD and takes the number of strokes and pyramid method as gospel, and ends up with an edge that needs to go back to the hone every Saturday.
In my experience, I will sometimes get consistent slurry undercutting the length of the blade after as few as 10 strokes, or as many as 50 strokes.
There are simply too many variables in the steel, stone, and technique to be able to specifically say "set the bevel, then do 30 strokes, then tape and do another 30+50"
Step 1 and 2 are good recommendations. Step 4 and 5 are going to vary wildly from razor to razor, stone to stone, and honer to honer.
I also find that a "generous" splash of water results in the hone no longer cutting effectively. My first attempts with my Coti were pathetic... and I found I was watering down the slurry too quickly.
For my stone, I found that just two DROPS of water off of a fingertip provide a nice amount of dilution to keep the slurry from becoming a paste (and destroying the edge already created).
But much of this depends on the stone... Coticules have personalities that vary more wildly than people, as well as environmental factors. When the air is dry, the slurry is going to dry out more quickly and you are not going to be able to get as many strokes before a dilution is needed simply to maintain the fluidity of the slurry.
I would absolutely agree with your last statement that steps 3-6 apply after a full Dilucot progression. You want to move to the secondary bevel with an edge that is already basically shave-ready (and in the case of most of us, better than any factory edge, and better than many "professionally honed" edges.)
My progression is similar. I'll start with a thick slurry, generally having to add a drop of water every 10-20 strokes to maintain the slurry. I'll work it until I am getting consistent undercutting the length of the edge on both sides... sometimes a few circles to get a persistent spot to catch up... then add two or three drops of water to the slurry to dilute and continue as such until the slurry is basically water.
One final rinse of the stone and enough laps to ensure that I am undercutting clean water, then I add a layer of tape, and go back to a very light slurry and follow a similar progression to clear water.
Depending on the blade and its condition, this may take as little as 15 minutes, and I have spent over an hour on one blade.
In my experience, I will sometimes get consistent slurry undercutting the length of the blade after as few as 10 strokes, or as many as 50 strokes.
There are simply too many variables in the steel, stone, and technique to be able to specifically say "set the bevel, then do 30 strokes, then tape and do another 30+50"
Step 1 and 2 are good recommendations. Step 4 and 5 are going to vary wildly from razor to razor, stone to stone, and honer to honer.
I also find that a "generous" splash of water results in the hone no longer cutting effectively. My first attempts with my Coti were pathetic... and I found I was watering down the slurry too quickly.
For my stone, I found that just two DROPS of water off of a fingertip provide a nice amount of dilution to keep the slurry from becoming a paste (and destroying the edge already created).
But much of this depends on the stone... Coticules have personalities that vary more wildly than people, as well as environmental factors. When the air is dry, the slurry is going to dry out more quickly and you are not going to be able to get as many strokes before a dilution is needed simply to maintain the fluidity of the slurry.
I would absolutely agree with your last statement that steps 3-6 apply after a full Dilucot progression. You want to move to the secondary bevel with an edge that is already basically shave-ready (and in the case of most of us, better than any factory edge, and better than many "professionally honed" edges.)
My progression is similar. I'll start with a thick slurry, generally having to add a drop of water every 10-20 strokes to maintain the slurry. I'll work it until I am getting consistent undercutting the length of the edge on both sides... sometimes a few circles to get a persistent spot to catch up... then add two or three drops of water to the slurry to dilute and continue as such until the slurry is basically water.
One final rinse of the stone and enough laps to ensure that I am undercutting clean water, then I add a layer of tape, and go back to a very light slurry and follow a similar progression to clear water.
Depending on the blade and its condition, this may take as little as 15 minutes, and I have spent over an hour on one blade.
- Thread starter
- #53
Nice post. I have to admit I cringe at your stropping count recommendation and further admit that you're in the same ballpark as a lot of others who commented on stropping.
- Thread starter
- #54
I have been saying that for years. Bravo. I have always moved from one abrasive level to the next when the blade looked ready to move in the microscope.
The thing is, coticule edges look so different from the synthetic and film edge that I may actually have to start counting since I don't know what to look for on the edge (edge of the edge) in the scope when it's time to dilute the slurry.
This high stropping count is, I assume, specifically for immediately post-honing. I would agree with the high count - it works wonders on a coticule edge that isn't quite there. As far as normal pre or post shave stropping, I agree that would be more than twice as many as necessary.
Never underestimate what a good stropping can do to straighten out an imperfect edge.
- Thread starter
- #56
It's clearly true that the coticule folks strop significantly more than I have been stropping.
I'm sure you are right about a good stropping straightening out an imperfect edge.
Much of my reasoning for stropping minimally is because i have seen stropping destroy so many edges of others. I have been rotating 15 to 20 blades of my own and it's been convenient to hone or touch up when a blade needs work rather then try to squeeze out a few extra shaves.
Perhaps, in the case of coticules, I will have to alter my thinking.
I think its the stroppers destroying their edges from improper stropping, lol. Also, CroX or diamond spray will slowly degrade a bevel. But proper stropping? I've never seen it happen in my experience.
- Thread starter
- #58
Nightly prior to my shave, I'm normally running 40 on linen and 50-70 on leather (never any Crox or spray, I stopped that when I moved away from synthetics)
It's not hurting anything, not adding to blade wear.
I'd rather double my stropping rather than increase honing sessions by 20%.
- Thread starter
- #60
Then we counterbalance each other since I'd rather increase my honing sessions by 50%.
I take great pleasure in watching someone's blade, often chipped and/or mistreated, come to life under my microscope as I progress through my honing steps.
When I test shave with that blade and it's wonderful, or marvelous or exceptional, I feel really good.
Similar threads
