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After a Coticule?

Glad you liked the edge James, I have always said that sharp is easy, sharp and smooth is the difficult part.


I more than liked it Alfredo. It was simply wonderful. I like having targets and I'll be aiming for this. I think you've taken edges from what can be done physically to something in the mystical category. Thank you.
 
I don't think 'sharp and smooth' is really all that difficult to achieve.
When I think about it - the majority of striggles seem to revolve around a lack of 'sharp'.

Way I see it - once you hit sharp, smooth is easy.
 
I don't think 'sharp and smooth' is really all that difficult to achieve.
When I think about it - the majority of striggles seem to revolve around a lack of 'sharp'.

Way I see it - once you hit sharp, smooth is easy.

To each their own. You've seen several people post the opposite to this thread. You're the first one I have seen make your argument which makes me curious about why you think it's the "majority?"
 
I'm referring the the majority of threads I've read since I've been poking into forums.
FWIW - that's been a loooong time - way longer than I've been a forum member anywhere.

The one single biggest hurdle posted is, generally speaking - the edge isn't 'sharp enough'.
This is often read as bevel setting problems - same thing to me. The bevel setting IS the base of sharpness and to me it's also the base of smoothness. What follows is also important but if this is overlooked the only two possibilities are;
1 - you have to try and make up for missed work on a later stone - IMO, this never leads to a smooth edge.
2 - the edge tugs, which is another 'not smooth' scenario.

Sure - a lot of people speak of 'not smooth enough' too. But I find the two subjects to be closely connected, not seperate issues.

What I believe is that once you get 'sharp' done correctly - 'smooth' falls in line fairly quickly.
I also believe that most of what we percieve as 'smooth' starts early on at the bevel setting stage.
A badly done bevel can lead to a shaving edge but it will not be smooth.
Most 'sharpness' is established at the earlies stages, and I think the stage for the bulk of smoothness is developed there too.
To me - the two go hand in hand. I think all the mystique and magical prowess alluded to has more to do with proficient bevel setting skills and proficient mid-range work than it does with finishing skills.

Of course - finishing skills are not without merit. They are also very important.

A house has both a foundation and a roof.
But the roof will fall if the foundation isn't set correctly.

The more I hone, and the more I shave - the further I get from the magical and mystical theories posted on the web.
With each passing shave - the more I see that all of this is really so very simple.
Wasn't always this way - I used to read everything everyone wrote and took it all to heart.
I really believed there was some kind of unobtainable skill needed or only magic recipes and very special stones would get me 'there'.
Now I think differently. To each their own though.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Have to agree with Gamma here, same experience at least as far as JNats go, I don't have the experience with other types of hones. All of them that are considered finishers can produce a decent shaving edge if the bevel's ready to finish. But ones that can pop hair cleanly off the finisher before stropping (with one palm strop stroke to clean the bevel) seem to deliver those really smooth edges. No splitting, hanging, pulling, just a clean pop. That would indicate smooth goes with sharp.

Also, when I was beginning to learn how to hone razors, it was easy for me to say that my "aggressive" edges were too sharp, because it's always easier to tell yourself you've done too good a job rather than not good enough. Truth is all those rough edges came from bad edge prep, less than optimal technique, or a hone that was almost but not quite where I wanted/needed it to be.

Cheers, Steve
 
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I'm referring the the majority of threads I've read since I've been poking into forums.
FWIW - that's been a loooong time - way longer than I've been a forum member anywhere.

The one single biggest hurdle posted is, generally speaking - the edge isn't 'sharp enough'.
This is often read as bevel setting problems - same thing to me. The bevel setting IS the base of sharpness and to me it's also the base of smoothness. What follows is also important but if this is overlooked the only two possibilities are;
1 - you have to try and make up for missed work on a later stone - IMO, this never leads to a smooth edge.
2 - the edge tugs, which is another 'not smooth' scenario.

Sure - a lot of people speak of 'not smooth enough' too. But I find the two subjects to be closely connected, not seperate issues.

What I believe is that once you get 'sharp' done correctly - 'smooth' falls in line fairly quickly.
I also believe that most of what we percieve as 'smooth' starts early on at the bevel setting stage.
A badly done bevel can lead to a shaving edge but it will not be smooth.
Most 'sharpness' is established at the earlies stages, and I think the stage for the bulk of smoothness is developed there too.
To me - the two go hand in hand. I think all the mystique and magical prowess alluded to has more to do with proficient bevel setting skills and proficient mid-range work than it does with finishing skills.

Of course - finishing skills are not without merit. They are also very important.

A house has both a foundation and a roof.
But the roof will fall if the foundation isn't set correctly.

The more I hone, and the more I shave - the further I get from the magical and mystical theories posted on the web.
With each passing shave - the more I see that all of this is really so very simple.
Wasn't always this way - I used to read everything everyone wrote and took it all to heart.
I really believed there was some kind of unobtainable skill needed or only magic recipes and very special stones would get me 'there'.
Now I think differently. To each their own though.


I first read this last night and I found myself thinking about it.

It turns out that I don't disagree with Gamma on the sharpness issue, although I view it differently.

My take is that many people who take up honing quickly get to the point where they can produce edges that shave. After time, this become the norm and it stays that way until something changes it. Most often, I think, what changes it is a shave from a blade honed by someone else and then, all of a sudden, they see flaws in their own honing and make efforts to match their new target edge.

I think that's what happened with me. I very quickly produced edges that would shave. Some time later, I started using film and I consistently produced a better edge than I had previously. I am recalling having honed a razor for a friend who loved it and some months later or a year later asked me to hone another. He hated it! He said it was too sharp. It wasn't too sharp, of course, but it was for him at that time because it was a change from his norm.

Still later I evolved to to routine with synthetics, mixing Choseras and Shapton Pros which produced even sharper edges.

But I never got them to be as smooth as I dreamed they could be until I began to play around with different finishing.

Arkies, Nanocloth, and then later coticules and Jnats.

Fun.
 
My take on it, you can't have smooth unless the razor is shaving and sharp. If it is not shapr enough and you get pulling then it can't be smooth.

I can make a razor sharp very quickly, heck film is very sharp, nano 12k is sharp, Shapton 16K is sharp.

Diamond sprays, pastes, Crox, Feox all make it sharper but not smoother.

Sharp and smooth I think is harder.
 
My take on it, you can't have smooth unless the razor is shaving and sharp. If it is not shapr enough and you get pulling then it can't be smooth.

I can make a razor sharp very quickly, heck film is very sharp, nano 12k is sharp, Shapton 16K is sharp.

Diamond sprays, pastes, Crox, Feox all make it sharper but not smoother.

Sharp and smooth I think is harder.

This has been my experience also ...

I agree with this completely!
 
What any one person finds to be 'their' progression, is whatever that is. Theirs.
Doesn't really matter if you hone on chicken fat if you like what the end results are.

The concept of sharp is confusing, it can refer to a lot of things. Anyone can make sharp happen, I guess my thinking is that the 'sharp in question is a sharpness of a type. For example, you can get a blunt edge to cut with pastes easily enough - but it'll shave terribly. In that sense, sharp is 'easy'. but the sharpness we are striving for is a different thing - once that's done correctly, then the rest is easy. At least for me it's always been that way. I suppose other people will develop their edges differently, so be it.
Smoothness, for me, is and always will be largely the result of proper ground and middle work.
In my experience, The subtle nuances from finishing are notable, but minimal in a proportionate sense.
 
After a coticule I go 30 laps cotton, 60 on English Bridle. No issues with lack of sharpness or smoothness. The only matters I have to decide is whether I'm going coticule or maxed out coticule.
 
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What any one person finds to be 'their' progression, is whatever that is. Theirs.
Doesn't really matter if you hone on chicken fat if you like what the end results are.

The concept of sharp is confusing, it can refer to a lot of things. Anyone can make sharp happen, I guess my thinking is that the 'sharp in question is a sharpness of a type. For example, you can get a blunt edge to cut with pastes easily enough - but it'll shave terribly. In that sense, sharp is 'easy'. but the sharpness we are striving for is a different thing - once that's done correctly, then the rest is easy. At least for me it's always been that way. I suppose other people will develop their edges differently, so be it.
Smoothness, for me, is and always will be largely the result of proper ground and middle work.
In my experience, The subtle nuances from finishing are notable, but minimal in a proportionate sense.

+1
 
Assuming one has perfected the bevel, would a 12k be more comfortable than a 16k for example?

The coticule has this reputation for being so smooth, and i've read that it compares to a 10k, so with a proper bevel- is there an approximate finisher grit that balances both sharp and smooth? Is it just the make up of the coti? Or is it it's 10k-ish sharpness?
 
These are all part of the experiment for new honers. A 16k theoretically can deliver a more refined edge assuming both stones or medium are rated by the same method. But there are too many variables, mainly the honers skill or lack of etc. Pressure strokes on the finisher reduce effective grits etc etc.
 
Assuming one has perfected the bevel, would a 12k be more comfortable than a 16k for example?

The coticule has this reputation for being so smooth, and i've read that it compares to a 10k, so with a proper bevel- is there an approximate finisher grit that balances both sharp and smooth? Is it just the make up of the coti? Or is it it's 10k-ish sharpness?

It's possible, depending on how you hone and the specific blade.

For a long time, my standard routine was to go from a 15K Shapton Pro down to a Naniwa 12K superstone which seemed to soften some of the bite and make the edge smoother (make the shave more comfortable). Technically, you'd assume the edge was slightly less keen.

Both a coticule and Jnat would have the same effect.
 

David

B&B’s Champion Corn Shucker
Lots of good stuff in this thread. Anyone just starting out with coticules should definitely give this a read.
 
Great read is right!!..i have to agree that "SMOOTH" is what people truly want. As an example i can hone to a sharp clean edge that works well for me but its no where as smooth as the edge that Joe Edson (or the likes of Doc, Gamma etc) put on my 1800s Rodgers that shaves like your wiping your face with a soft towel...im talking so smooth that your in disbelief that its actually shaving smooth.

I also have to agree that the bevel is the key to a great edge...if that is not perfect all the rest is not gonna work out as isnt the rest just basically removing imperfections in the material of the bevel; so merely taking away the scratches and gouges to the point of solid flat scratch free edge?
 

David

B&B’s Champion Corn Shucker
We've had quite a bit of Coticule talk here recently so I thought I'd bring this back to the front page.
 
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