damascus

I just have to ask a question that may ruffle some feathers.
How is it that I can get a 150.00 hunting knife with real
antler handle and this is the kicker a Damascus steel blade
10 times the size of a straight razor, but the straights are
750.00 -1,000.00 dollars, this just does not make sense to me.
The work in making Damascus is the same. If it takes twenty
hours to make and 1000 to buy that is $50/hour that is more
than most college grads make.

I am a college grad and absolutely do not think that I deserve anywhere near the salary that Mr. Zowada makes at this time in my career. He is truly a craftsman and stand up guy, and deserves much more than he is making. If you want to get one of his knives, the waiting list is over 10 years long and they are much more expensive than his razors; so we are very lucky to have the opportunity to purchase his razors at the prices that they are going for now. Just as all steels are not created equal, all pattern welded steels are not equal; you are really comparing apples and oranges in this case. I would recommend that you check out his website (tzknives) and look at the labor intensive process that Mr. Zowada puts into his steel and the razors that he makes with it. Even if it does only take 20 hours to make a razor, it took Mr. Zowada over 20 years to learn his craft, so you are paying for his experience. If you were to put ten times as many hours into a razor I guarantee that you won't produce the same result.

Trust me when I say that I am not bashing his work and was not calling him out specifically
just an observation in the materials. I am new here and do not know him or have the privilege in using his products, just questioning what makes a razor worth a thousand dollars by any maker.

bass hunter said:

The work in making Damascus is the same.

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This is where you are mistaken. The pattern welded steel in a Zowada razor is absolutely not the same steel as that in the knife that you describe. Furthermore, the process to produce it is different as well.

bass hunter said:

just questioning what makes a razor worth a thousand dollars by any maker.

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The market decides what is a razor by a particular craftsman is worth just the same as any other product or service.

I would recommend reading this article entitled "What is Different about Zowada Razors?"
http://www.tzknives.com/what is different.html

Maybe this will partially answer your question.

bass hunter said:

Trust me when I say that I am not bashing his work and was not calling him out specifically
just an observation in the materials. I am new here and do not know him or have the privilege in using his products, just questioning what makes a razor worth a thousand dollars by any maker.

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Simply put - NO razor is "worth" $1,000.... for gods sake, it's a razor. There are razors that COST $1,000 and they're quite nice, but they do not function much better than a $100 razor.

heavydutysg135 said:

This is where you are mistaken. The pattern welded steel in a Zowada razor is absolutely not the same steel as that in the knife that you describe. Furthermore, the process to produce it is different as well.

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I said an observation in material not a evaluation, so I was not mistaken, but I do agree with you whole heartedly market demand and the subsequent value placed there in. I am not a metallurgist nor do I pretend to be. I have been to his sight and am more than impressed with his work and might decide to purchase one latter.

As to your comment about it being different I found this: “Damascened steel and sometimes watered steel. The technique used to create original Damascus steel is now a matter of historical conjecture. The most common technique today for producing these materials is 1. pattern welding, which is widely used for custom knife making. Skilled swordsmiths can manipulate the patterns to mimic the complex designs found in the surface of the original, medieval Damascus steel, (wikipeda-Damascus steel)
I simply posed a question with a little sarcasm and looks like I did ruffle some feathers.

A very complex yet stimulating conversation none the less.

Jolly good fun would you not say?

Pattern welded steel is in itself very expensive. You can buy machine made pattern welded steel, and it can easily cost $150 per yard of 1/8" by 1" steel, depending on the particular pattern. Then there are knife makers who make their own pattern welded steel in their own smithy. They might get away with charging less for a knife. Some simply put an old motorcycle chain in the forge and make "damascus" steel that way.

Then we have the problem that all pattern welded steel is not created equal. If you're not good at making it, you can get inclusions and impurities in the steel which weakens it, or you can fail to get the layers to "weld" together. In a sturdy knife blade, this might not be a problem. In a hollow ground razor, this can be catastrophic.

You also have to consider the work involved in grinding the blade, and the tolerances you're working with. Generally speaking, making a hollow ground razor blade takes more work and skill than making a knife blade.

Of course, there are also custom knives which cost more than $1000. Same thing there. What's different between that $150 "damascus steel" knife and the $1000 one? Fit and finish? Quality of the pattern welded steel? The experience and knowledge of the maker?

/Nicholas

P.S. No feathers ruffled in my case, just want to educate you a little.

The damascus knife you bought for $150. where did it come from? If if came from India, Pakistan or even China everything is much cheaper there. I have seen large damascus knives coming from India that only cost $35.OO.

HOWEVER! Products coming from those countries are not necessarily truly Damascus steel.

bass hunter said:

that is $50/hour that is more
than most college grads make.

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That used to seem like a lot of money to me, now it's just enough to get by.

The heart of the matter is market forces. There are a few smiths who deserve to charge 150 USD per pound of their pattern welded steels. They have the time in, and the experience, and, over that career, have proven their product hands down. In the early years, not one of them ever recovered the hourly rate that they put into their work. Not me, not Tim, not practically all of us.

Then some newbie shows up and learns from us. He/she goes home and starts banging out the work and shows up at a show to sell. They first believe that they have every right to sell their stuff at the same prices I do. Once that illusion is popped by some, less than kind, buyer/collector, they are crushed. They aren't as well known and, to compete, they lower their prices. But the buyer is right too. This new maker isn't as well known and their product isn't as certain or well developed. And, a lot of buyers pick up early blades, believing or hoping that the new maker will be somebody someday. They are looking at these things as an investment.

It might be the same steel mix as mine (hell, they learned it from me, why wouldn't they set themselves up to be like mine?). But the buyer can't tell that by looking. The integrity of the maker has to be present as well. The buyer may show up at my table and ask me if I know the guy directly. I can choose to burn them or verify their claims. The new maker finds out pretty quick that they are not going to recover their hourly rate, but they are there to sell something and the only way to do it is to discount. Then there is the problem of too steeply discounting because that serves to give the appearance that their stuff isn't really worth the same as a more experienced makers.

The overseas smithies have such cheap labor and readily available scrap yards that they can puddle stuff together for pennies compared to the US makers. Their prices undercut our by multiples of dollars. I would offer that the early stuff really had problems with its reputation too, but once they learn that the buyers will not purchase their stuff if it's sh*t, they rapidly modify their processes to be competitive and they still try to kill us in the marketplace. I can't possibly explain how many times, across a sales table, I have to explain why my steel is "at least a known material (because I built it)" and not some unknown product where the buyer will not be able to confront the maker if it fails.

No one wants to spend money when they can get the same stuff cheaper. It's the American Way innit? Doesn't matter if the reputation isn't as good, the mighty dollar speaks louder.

The second aspect of market forces is the collectibility. Think about this just momentarily. Anyone remember Beanie Babies? Japanese swords? Velvet Elvis wallhangings? Omigod, straight razors?

I would argue that anyone can turn something into a collectible item with enough hype, advertising and gullible buyers. One of my daughters believed that she would fund her college education on the artificial markups that BB operators published. When she got older she wasn't nearly as crushed as I thought she would be. My wallet is one hellofa lot emptier though.

Why would a Bob Loveless knife that sold in the 80's for 125 USD now be worth more than the price of a new house? Because collectors have driven up the value, not because the knife itself is superior. You have to keep the perspective here.

I have said, will continue to say, pattern welded steels have no intrinsic benefit over an homogenous steel heat treated to perform the same. It's an aesthetic difference that attracts a customer at that point.

Those are my pre-coffee cranky thoughts maybe I'll think differently later...

Still, it's a good conversation to have. It levels the playing field some and educates the buyers with valid and reliable information, not hype, not myth, not mysteries, which we makers should be doing anyway.

bass hunter said:

I just have to ask a question that may ruffle some feathers.
How is it that I can get a 150.00 hunting knife with real
antler handle and this is the kicker a Damascus steel blade
10 times the size of a straight razor, but the straights are
750.00 -1,000.00 dollars, this just does not make sense to me.
The work in making Damascus is the same. If it takes twenty
hours to make and 1000 to buy that is $50/hour that is more
than most college grads make.

Click to expand...

In my view, something like a Zowada or Livi, or Ellis, razor is more art than function. I can go to a "starving artists" sale and pick up a "sofa size genuine oil " painting for $15. It's basically the same type of paint on canvas as a Rembrandt. Can I buy a genuine Rembrandt for $15?

Daves said:

The damascus knife you bought for $150. where did it come from? If if came from India, Pakistan or even China everything is much cheaper there. I have seen large damascus knives coming from India that only cost $35.OO.

HOWEVER! Products coming from those countries are not necessarily truly Damascus steel.

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This is truly awesome, when I said it would ruffle some feathers I never thought there would be a damn naked chicken running around. But seriously you all have valid points and are great people.

As to where the knife I was talking about was made and by whom. I do not know his name his wife died some years back and does this to stay busy and for the love of seeing something he made bring joy to others. He like Mr. Zowada does not use scrap. He just does not have the clout and a web page. A relatively unknown if it were.

As it is true with the whole straight razor theory that it is about the nostalgia and time it takes, not about the quick buy or the name. Something so pure and ZEN as dragging a razor sharp steel blade across ones face and making it so trivial, buy having a pissing contest over market value over functionality, most of us could afford a Rolls Roice, or a Bentley, only a few made every year and a waiting list as well. But we do not, why? I truly would put Mr. Zowada’s craftsmanship right up there with those cars, immaculate work, but what it really comes down to is a name and the willingness to pay for it. There is not one of us here who if given the chance would turn down more money if it were handed to you. If your boss came to you and said you had to do no extra work but he would triple your salary, how many of you would say no? So let us be honest with ourselves it is not about it being a superior product just a superior maker.

I think you missed the point of your own exercise. Ah well...

Mike Blue said:

I think you missed the point of your own exercise. Ah well...

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Unless it was an exercise in trolling...

No, it is not need to remind any one of the origin of the thread. You are correct in my getting the feed back I inquired about, Tim should not be offended, as I stated on the second post I was not calling him out simply used the word Damascus and a price point every thing else i.e. name dropping was done by others, I am not cheap, just require a bit more information before I would make a thousand dollar razor purchase. I wanted to know what the difference was in any high end Damascus by any maker and the Damascus made locally. See I proved the point that it is not the material that drives the cost but the public, and that any maker would be foolish not to accept payment as such, You folks proved that it is an art and talent that is the deciding factor. Lets just say the material is superior, but the real value is in the one forging it. I wrote to an upstanding member of this forum(name to be withheld) and asked if I only had 150.00 to spend on a razor what would it be. A 79.99 special from DOVO was the recommendation. See folk I asked for information in a different way(As all questions are not the same), and I received great response, as I am a bit of a smart ***. You folks are very loyal to a respected member of your group, that is not only to be commended but admired.

Well, let me ask you a question? If you needed a serious operation and your life was in question would you go to a Doctor who just graduated from medical school or one with alot of experience and who did this proceedure hundreds of times? After all they all use the same instruments and technology and the fundamentals of the operation are all the same. Why pay the pro 30 grand when the newbe only charges 10? It the same with the knife, no different just that in this case the materials coan be very different. Also I have to disagree with Joel saying a razor isn't worth a grand it costs that. The fact is an item is worth what people are willing to pay for it no matter what the item is. Value is a subjective thing. If someone is willing to pay 10 grand for a piece of modern art which is a modified toilet and they can resell it for 15 grand then its worth it. Many would say the more basic an item is to everyday life the closer the cost is to value but as items become more esoteric the two points become wider apart.

There is not a single word that Mike Blue said that I could disagree with. He is right on the money with his comments. I must also add that the uneducated buyer who shops through glazed-over eyes also contributes to the rise in prices. As this interest in straight razors increases, my guess is that you will see custom knifemakers offering up some really nice stuff in the future. That will help stabilize some of the pricing.

My suggestion for all of you is to make it to a major knifemaking show to actually see what fit and finish really means. Ask just about any knifemaker what to look for in a quality cutting instrument and he will show you. If he doesn't know the answer, you wouldn't want one of his products anyway.

Oops, I forgot to say that your $150 knife is probably very nice, but I doubt that the steel looks anything like the stuff I get from Devin Thomas.

Notice that the prices are per inch. If I use 6 inches of steel at $20 per inch, that's $120 just for the steel. I'm sure Tim's or Mike's steel has similar value. After buying from Devin, I still have to grind everything away that doesn't look like a razor. Then, to actually finish the thing, I figure I better put some scales on it. That can be a tad expensive as well.

I can understand big prices from big knifemakers. What I cannot understand is big prices from little knifemakers who haven't quite hit the nail on the head yet.

When I started out in '91, I used to get $125 for a knife and was almost overpaid. I get a little more now, yet I see some folks jumping into the fray thinking they should get a similar price for mediocre work.