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History In Our Schools

NMMB said:
No, trust me, comparing apples and apples is how you make a valid comparison. Comparing the salary of somebody who has 6 years of university education with somebody who dropped out in grade 9 and with somebody who spent longer in university (a surgical specialist, perhaps) is not a valid comparison just because they all would be included in computing the meaningless national average.

This is where I disagree. Higher education was never intended as a means to increase one's salary, but was first pursued for scholarly purposes. It is only relatively recently that education has been associated with a greater salary, boefore which it was generally favored due to providing a more rewarding vocation. Take law school, for example. Here, it requires a minimum of five years in school and one makes an excellent starting salary far above that of a professor who has spent a [extremely rare] bare minimum of eight years in school.
 
Xert said:
This is where I disagree. Higher education was never intended as a means to increase one's salary, but was first pursued for scholarly purposes. It is only relatively recently that education has been associated with a greater salary, boefore which it was generally favored due to providing a more rewarding vocation. Take law school, for example. Here, it requires a minimum of five years in school and one makes an excellent starting salary far above that of a professor who has spent a [extremely rare] bare minimum of eight years in school.

I am making no judgment about what should or shouldn't be; I am an economist and we don't like to make any moral judgments (perhaps that is why governments have so many economists). The idealistic intention (as you choose to see it) of higher education is of no more consequence to this argument than is the average annual snowfall in Tatamagouche (Nova Scotia, Canada).

I am simply considering what is; and the amount of education is directly and strongly related to income earned, in a deterministic manner. Why is this? Well, there are many competing theories. Perhaps through education we learn skills that are valued by firms and they are willing to pay more for these acquired skills. Alternatively it could be that we actually learn nothing in school but we choose to get education only to signal to potential employers that we are high quality (skilled) workers.

The fact that education is more strongly related to income than most other variables (perhaps all - I would need to consult multiple studies to say this and simply don't have the time to do extra research right now) means that it is vital to consider when comparing incomes between individuals or groups. Not doing so will, at best, provide you with incorrect and misguiding results.

Are there exceptions to this? Yes. There are many. A lawyer may often earn more than a more highly educated professor and a high school dropout who made it as a pro athlete undoubtedly makes more than either of the aforementioned individuals. That exceptions exist does not nullify the fact that education and income are deterministically related in our modern society (unless, of course, you happen to be living in an equitable, highly functional and non-corrupt communist nation where income is not related to education or skills).
 
Well, what job is more important than teaching our young people? That being said, teacher's salaries vary greatly across the nation, ranging from ridiculously low to rather well paid. Who are low paid are those brave souls who teach in our most dangerous urban schools. Many teachers are taking jobs in suburbia where the wages and life are better, and the students are better behaved. As for No Child Left Behind, at least we now have some standards. Sure, administrators are always going to "teach for the test", but that hs always gone on.

Some may scoff at me, but I firmly believe that a good education is largely self-derived. The best schools have teachers who inspire the love of learning in young people, and this sets them off on a journey of reading and self-discovery. This has to be nurtured by the parents as well. The specifics of what are learned during school hours are in the minority.
 
Just a couple of points, and I'll preface this with I mean no disrespect to anyone here, or to anyone they are related to who are/will be teachers. My dad was in the education field his entire career. He spent the last 20+ years as an elementary principal. We had three elementary schools in my town, and dad's was on "the other side of the tracks". It was known as the worst school. Not because of who worked there, but because is was in the "black" side of town. However, every year when the Top 10 of the graduating class was announced, he always took great pride that a majority of the Top 10 were "his kids". He worked hard to find the right teachers, and would not tolerate teachers who taught because they "had summers off".

Now, to my point. George, no offense but you said "Why is it that every generation thinks that the generation that proceeds their own is "going to hell in a hand basket!" The complaint it not about those "who came before". It's about the generation that comes after. I caught this error the day it was posted. Ironic, in a thread about education, typos excluded, that a statement of error this simple would go unnoticed and uncorrected. George, again, no offense in pointing this out. I certainly make my share of mistakes.

The issue with teacher pay is why we have such poor teachers. Yes, some teachers do teach because they care. But not every teacher who cares can afford to make that economic decision. Teaching is not the honorable profession it once was. It would take time, but better paid teachers will result in better quality teachers. Something is very wrong in the world when a sports professinal will make more in one year than a teacher will make in a lifetime. And look how long THEIR seasons are! Oh, wait, they train all year? So do teachers. At least the good teachers.

Randy
 
Scotto said:
Some may scoff at me, but I firmly believe that a good education is largely self-derived. The best schools have teachers who inspire the love of learning in young people, and this sets them off on a journey of reading and self-discovery. This has to be nurtured by the parents as well. The specifics of what are learned during school hours are in the minority.

I couldn't agree more.
 
rtaylor61 said:
...Something is very wrong in the world when a sports professinal will make more in one year than a teacher will make in a lifetime. And look how long THEIR seasons are! Oh, wait, they train all year? So do teachers. At least the good teachers....

Randy,

I've been saying this for years... and I'm certain that my mother has been saying it for a lot longer than I have - not only was she a teacher (was, or is? do you ever stop being a teacher?), but she hates how much pro athletes earn for "playing some stupid game", as she would say.
 
A few more things to consider. Like anything else, good education starts at home. Specifically, instilling a desire to learn and to READ are key factors. Along with that go work ethic and discipline. Children do not need to be taught to fear their elders, but to respect them. If you want an eye opener, go walk the halls of a school while school is in session. Odds are you will find students wandering the halls. And not quietly. Teachers are loosing control of their classrooms because they lack the authority to discipline the students. In my day, if you got licks at school, you would get double at home (and remember, my dad was an elementary school principal...a professional board swinger). I don't want my children to have good teachers. I want them to have quality teachers. Private schools may have a leg up on this. But I can't afford private schools. The most important thing we can do as parents is to be pro-active in the education of our children. Afterall, they are OUR responsibility.

Randy
 
rtaylor61 said:
...Private schools may have a leg up on this....

Randy,

I wouldn't count on this, at least not in Canada though the USA may be different. Private schools do not have to deal with unions, and in some jurisdictions do not have to deal with as much of the law regarding education leaving them free to hire "teachers" who are not necessarily trained as teachers and they are free to decide how much to pay their teachers (since they negotiate directly with teachers and not with a union). Private schools may appear to have a leg up here, but that appearance may be costing quite a bit of money - money that therefore is not going to quality teachers and quality teaching. Some of the best schools in the USA are undoubtedly public schools (look it up).
 
My brother was a teacher. But when his comic book buisness made more money than his English degree paid him, he opened his own shop. Now he sells batman, superman and yu-gi-o cards...

He had tires slashed, windshields busted, and keyed paint. Mind you he was in a country school, too. He had to pay fo rthis while on school property.

I understand the vacation part of the complaint. Most teachers can get paid on a 12 month cycle instead of the 9 month, they work. You can do the math and see what that works out a month then.

I have been told that the high school classes are easier on the teachers, but the grade school classes requies the teacher to work longer hours, ie grading papers. These have to be done one by one and requires several hours per day to do them.

Once again, a friend of mine went from the 3rd grade to 6th grade math (only)...now she is out of there at 3:30.....done...

She use to have to do the bus duty every day, too...with no extra pay.

Pay scales are always touchy to talk about, however, keep in mind that this person is educating your child, and what do you want?

I try to implement my children;s education by talking about what they are studying...showing them on the internet some pictures. I am trying to take them to some of the museums.

When we had one room schoolhouses with only one teacher...that was a tough job....but look what a generation of hard working Americans came out of that bunch....

mark tssb
 
If we were looking for a paycheck alone, there are better ways to achieve it.

George,

I'm happy for you and your wife that you don't need the money your wife will earn, but this is actually one of my bigger issues with those who believe teachers are overpayed.

My wife and I are in need our paychecks, and we believe that teaching is the best way to earn a living for us and our family. The hours make sense for those with a family, we enjoy working with children, and we are committed to public education.

For us, teaching is our vocation, not an avocation. We work hard at it, and feel like we should earn a decent wage. And not have to apologize for doing so. I don't think that is asking for too much.
 
Since my parents are getting up in years, and at best, I only see them once a year, we talk every weekend by phone. I mentioned this thread to my dad. He told me an interesting fact. His best teachers were teachers who did not have to worry about money. He said that all of his teachers were good, the best that he could find and keep. But those who had no financial worries were superior.

Randy
 
Before we start crossing lines here, please, let's all remember we are stating our opinions. Also, typed words do not denote our facial expressions nor our intent. We need to take into account that we are all going to disagree from time to time. In the past, if I felt I offended someone, I would send a pm apologizing, and offer to apologize in the forums. This is also one of the reasons I seldom comment in these types of threads.

For now, let's keep things civil and agree to disagree. A war of words will only cause hard feelings.

Randy
 
I don't know if I have caused anybody to feel offended, but if so I too would like to apologize. This isn't to say that I don't stand by what i've said, but I do not wish to cause undue stress amongst B&B'ers. As Randy suggested, I am always happy to agree to disagree.
 
To comment on what Randy said about good money bringing in good teachers, I couldn't agree more. We would all like our children to be learning form the best, and where are the best located right now? I'm not so sure about the humanities, but the ones in science and mathematics are in industry. The best and the brightest are the ones working on masters and Ph.D.s in the universities. I've often thought about teaching high school, but I could never afford to make payments on my education on a teachers salary, and quite honestly, with a Ph.D. I feel that I would be worth more than 27K. This is why I am going into industry. It doesn't even matter at the university level. Even professors are sorely underpaid for the service they provide to their universities. It really is unfortunate.
As far as athletes are concerned. I look at it like this. They are professionals and should be compensated accordingly. I have a friend (who I shall leave nameless) who is now an allstar in the NFL who plays a key position on a big market team. He makes in the millions of dollars each year from his salary alone. Is he worth this money? There is no doubt that he is worth a 7 figure salary over 6 years, but he is in the 8 figure range over 6 years. He's a professional, he should be paid accordingly, just like doctors and lawyers and educators.
Also, this whole "teaching to the test thing" needs to be done away with. All it accomplishing is teaching our children that all you do is need to memorize a set of facts. Great so a kid can learn that 2 comes after 1, but can they take 2 plus 2 and make 4? Unfortunatley, many can not. The average student I teach at the university can memorzize anything, but they can not take the bits of information and synthesize a coherent thought. Somewhere along the line, they have lost this crucial skill. These standardized tests will continue to cripple our education system until they are done away with.
 
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