More finishing hone questions

[nickyspaghetti]

As a continuation of my question regarding the thuringans, I am wondering also if I should consider the Chinese 12k and the Shapton 16k.
My finest hone at the moment is a coticule and I would very much like to get a Shapton as it is a much finer grit than most other hones and it seems to be good quality but I noticed that Joel recommends using the Chinese 12k first.

So the question is should I buy a Thuringan(the only thing that makes me think this is that they are only a few hundred km from my door - the other two will have to cross the Atlantic I think) a Chinese and Shapton, or would I be able to get away with using a Shapton straight from a coticule.

I know the 12k is very cheap also and how much difference is there between this and a 16k edge - I find that I need a very sharp razor to shave acceptably. Does using the 16k siginificantly change the way the edge reacts to pastes if used after the hone or are they unneccesary following this grit?
Thanks in advance

[Thebigspendur]

I think that in general if you can't get an optimal edge off the coticule something is very wrong there. from what I understand the Thuringan is a coarser stone. Its the escher that is finer. I have a vintage escher and I find though its gives a very good edge the edge feels a tad coarser than off the coticule and its no sharper. I also have a new Thuringan and both the escher and Coticule give a better edge. My recommendation to you is to work on the coticule until you are getting the most out of it and then look at getting more stones. If you have 50 finishing stones its not going to help if you can't get the most out of them no matter the grit size.

[nickyspaghetti]

The coticule is certainly very good, an amazing improvement on the Norton 8k, but to be honest it doesn't really get the edge as sharp as I would like it. I have honed numerous razors on it and also had a few honed on a coticule from SRP members and I still feel like there is room for improvement. I like the sharpness that 0.5 paste gives but I'm not keen on the harshness and the longevity that pastes bring and want to get a similar result using a hone.
If the thuringen is not so good then I won't go for it, but I'm still curious about the other two.
I have a feeling that my coticule isn't a good quality one, it has a red streak through it which I think is affecting my razors and the surface is not 100% solid in colour so I want to replace it anyway I think.
I'm not saying I can't get a good edge from the coticule but I keep getting the feeling that I can get more from my razors.

[Thebigspendur]

Keep in mind there are all kinds of coticules out there. I think Tony originally sold some but stopped because of quality issues. I think Howard has about the most consistant ones. certainly if yours is lacking you won't get the optimal edge. However remember that honing a razor is a balancing act between sharpness, comfort and longevity. I can hone a razor on .25 amplex diamond and it will be sharper than off the coticule but the comfort will be lacking and the edge doesn't last that long. You could probably hone a razor with some very fine medium and get a razor blade like sharpness but I don't think you would be very happy with the shave. All I can tell you is that I use either my coticule or my vintage escher to hone all my razors and the result is BBS shaves that are extremely comfortable and last a long time between rehoning. I don't have a chinese but I do have a Kitayama which is 12K and either of my two other stones do a better job. I really don't think a 16K or a 32K is the answer to your problem.

[nickyspaghetti]

I will have a think - at the least I think I should replace my coticule because it is tiny and also of unknown quality. What I will replace it with is still uncertain as I am not sure of the best option. An escher is too expensive and I would like to try something different from a coticule really.
I cannot shave at all from the Norton and I have tried up to 0.5 micron paste, which is much better, but I don't like what it does to the edge.
I'll have a think for a bit and read a bit more.

[joel]

I will have a think - at the least I think I should replace my coticule because it is tiny and also of unknown quality. What I will replace it with is still uncertain as I am not sure of the best option. An escher is too expensive and I would like to try something different from a coticule really.
I cannot shave at all from the Norton and I have tried up to 0.5 micron paste, which is much better, but I don't like what it does to the edge.
I'll have a think for a bit and read a bit more.

If you cannot get a comfortable shave from the Norton 8K, unfortunately, it is more YOU than any of the hones. Nortons are exceptionally consistent, and the 8K side of a norton should be able to provide you with a very nice, irritation free, smooth shave. The finishing hones will just take it to a finer degree - but you should be able to get a very nice shave outta the 8K.

I think often, people try to throw money at problems they have in honing and shaving with straight razors - only to find very little, or a marginal improvement. What would serve you best is time/practice. Most Belgian Yellow Coticules are going to do their job just fine, and if you say yours is an improvement over the 8K side of the Norton, then by golly it is... unless you are honing up quite a few razors - having a small coticule shouldn't be an issue provided it works for you. Having a bigger one can/will be a "luxury" item, but what good will it do you if already you aren't able to get the maximum benefit from the one you currently have?

This sounds like a problem that should be solved with time/dedication rather than more hones, which in my opinion will merely further complicate things for you...

[Thebigspendur]

Well I was trying to be subtle about it and didn't want to to come right out and say the problem was with the user but you are totally correct Joel. He just needs to properly learn to use that Norton. Yes, too many people go hog wild with these things and seek to buy more and better before they properly learn to use the basics thinking if its more expensive or in this case of a hone if its finer it will automatically do a better job.

I think to people who are kind of struggling with honing on the basics if they realized what a true honemeister can do with just the Norton Combo they would realize the skill that needs to be developed.

[nickyspaghetti]

I have honed razors for nearly a year on the Norton and have never been satisfied with the comfort of the shave, I think it is fairly common that people don't like the shave straight from the Norton.
In the time I have been honing I have just seen the Norton as part of a progression in getting a razor shave ready, certainly not the finishing hone. Yes the razors shave from the Norton, but they certainly don't like my face. I'm sure it isn't just my honing as the other razors I received honed by SRP members have felt the same.
I'm certainly not claiming to be amazing at honing, but I know when a razor is not getting any sharper from a particular hone - and this level of sharpness doesn't seem to agree with my beard.

[Thebigspendur]

I don't know that the fact that many do not like the comfort of the shave off the Norton is an indication that it is lacking as a hone. I think it is more that they are lacking in its skilled use. We see many post from people who use 12K hones and they are unhappy with the results. Certainly you can get a more refined edge with the higher grits but personally to me I find as you go higher the differences are small. Nothing drastic. Bad habits once learned are very difficult to break because they become reinforced. The longer you do them the worse they become. Honing is a skill, some are really good at it and some aren't. Most are in between. I don't mean any disrespect to you but what I would suggest is send one of your razors to Lynn for honing and ask him to go no further than the 8K and see what the result is? I think you would be shocked.

[joel]

Well, one thing to remember... the sharper the edge, the sooner it'll fade, whether it is on a hone, or pastes. If you like the edge of .5 micron diamond, I'd suggest getting .5 micron green chrome, as it is much nicer on the face, or hell - use the .5 micron diamond, then smooth it out with 100 or so strops on newsprint.

The 16K's are neat, but at the end of the day it's a .92 micron hone, and you're going to get the finest/sharpest edge (in my opinion) from .5, then .25 micron diamond paste, and if your intention is the sharpest edge - it's going to be with pastes. I find with the super grit hones (IE 30K) they basically function very similar to diamond pastes, and I end up smoothing them out on newsprint, or green chrome regardless. Sure, you can get a near feather sharp blade from 'em - but they are pretty miserable to use.

[sebell]

Hones are the only choice at the lower grits to
get a consistent, flat, sharp bevel. Once you
get into the polishing stage, pastes provide an
effective way of smoothing out that edge. You
could spend $300+ on a 30k stone (0.5 micron)
or just go for the chromium oxide and save
yourself the cash. You can go straight from the
8k to the CrO, or use a Coticule and optionally
add 10 or so passes on the pasted paddle strop
for a bit of final polish.

I really don't know of anyone who owns the
Shapton Pro 30k or GlassStone 30k who uses
it on a regular basis to finish their razors.


- Scott