USADA to ban Armstrong for life and strip of his seven (7) Tour titles. :-(

[sgtd]

Two things to consider:

1. The USADA does not have any authority to "strip" Armstrong of a TdF title.

+1

[nemo]

So my question is, if they strip away his titles, who will inherit them? The UCI may have to dig through the top ten finishers to find one who hasn't been under suspicion, banned, or involved in some tangle of doping accusations. Lots of asterisks next to rider's names.

[cstone28]

Someone on another forum had the idea that if your going to take it away from Lance and all the second placers are past dopers or suspected dopers those 7 titles should be listed as no official winner. That sounds better to me then someone like Ivan Basso a confirmed doper being declared the winner.

Someone who knows the process answer me this. Is it true that a lot of this came about because Lance came out of retirement in 09 and 10 and because he was still active in triathlons? What I heard is that because he was still actively competing he could be subject to investigation, and that if he stayed retired this particular investigation wouldn't have happened. True, not true?

[Uncle Brian]

I still think he's a great cyclist and an amazing man for his cancer work.

[sir-nix-alot]

Someone on another forum had the idea that if your going to take it away from Lance and all the second placers are past dopers or suspected dopers those 7 titles should be listed as no official winner. That sounds better to me then someone like Ivan Basso a confirmed doper being declared the winner.

Someone who knows the process answer me this. Is it true that a lot of this came about because Lance came out of retirement in 09 and 10 and because he was still active in triathlons? What I heard is that because he was still actively competing he could be subject to investigation, and that if he stayed retired this particular investigation wouldn't have happened. True, not true?

Could be true.

I was watching a mountain bike race on TV that he was competing in. He lost to a 16 year old kid - which I find hard to believe that Lance can destroy the Pyrenees against elite doping athletes but cant stave off a kid?

[riooso]

There has to be some kind of standards established, and they were. So get over it. Armstrong has passed hundreds of tests over the decades. There comes a point where enough, is really enough. How would anybody here feel if the US government were to spend decades trying to "find" some reason why your business was wildly successful. Stopping by in the middle of the night and demanding that you come across with yet another sample.

This is just old world loser jealousy surfacing. Year after year, decade after decade! When does the status of limitations finally kick in? I too would eventually fold under the pressure and I can assure you that, even at the age of 60, I have never folded when I stood on solid ground. To beat someone down both financially and physically for that long a period just shows what bureaucrats can do to ruin your life.

Boycott the Tour! I personally have had enough of their BS



Later,
Richard

[commanderkeen]

There has to be some kind of standards established, and they were. So get over it. Armstrong has passed hundreds of tests over the decades. There comes a point where enough, is really enough. How would anybody here feel if the US government were to spend decades trying to "find" some reason why your business was wildly successful. Stopping by in the middle of the night and demanding that you come across with yet another sample.

This is just old world loser jealousy surfacing. Year after year, decade after decade! When does the status of limitations finally kick in? I too would eventually fold under the pressure and I can assure you that, even at the age of 60, I have never folded when I stood on solid ground. To beat someone down both financially and physically for that long a period just shows what bureaucrats can do to ruin your life.

Boycott the Tour! I personally have had enough of their BS



Later,
Richard

The Tour had nothing to do with this, they actually defended Lance as they should. It's the US gov't that's running this witch-hunt, so boycott the USADA.

[k2clones29]

I understand the whole "create equal playing field so athletes don't have to resort to PEDs" argument, but it seems to be a waste to go back and investigate things that happened the year I graduated high school. Cyclists were using and baseball players were using. We should all just assume that everyone was operating on an equal playing field at the time because the PEDs off-set each other, judge the athlete's greatness during that era in relative terms (as we do in all sports), and move on to enforcing today's athletes. I could really care less if the winner of 7 Tour De France titles was using when 2nd - 15th were as well.

[sir-nix-alot]

There has to be some kind of standards established, and they were. So get over it. Armstrong has passed hundreds of tests over the decades. There comes a point where enough, is really enough. How would anybody here feel if the US government were to spend decades trying to "find" some reason why your business was wildly successful. Stopping by in the middle of the night and demanding that you come across with yet another sample.

This is just old world loser jealousy surfacing. Year after year, decade after decade! When does the status of limitations finally kick in? I too would eventually fold under the pressure and I can assure you that, even at the age of 60, I have never folded when I stood on solid ground. To beat someone down both financially and physically for that long a period just shows what bureaucrats can do to ruin your life.

Boycott the Tour! I personally have had enough of their BS



Later,
Richard

I hope your not this naive. Blaming the Govt, Old World Jealousy, and the Tour for Lances indiscretions?

Marion Jones tested clean because she was using designer drugs. One of the guys that created those drugs at Balco is Usain Bolts "coach."

According to Hunter's 2004 testimony before a federal grand jury, Jones' use of banned drugs began well before Sydney.^[20] Hunter told the investigators that Jones first obtained EPO (Erythropoietin) from Graham, who Hunter said had a Mexican connection for the drug. Later, Hunter said, Graham met Conte, who began providing the coach with BALCO "nutritional supplements", which were actually an experimental class of "designer" steroids said to be undetectable by any drug screening procedures available at the time. Graham then distributed the performance enhancers to Jones and other Sprint Capitol athletes. Still later, Hunter told federal agents, Jones began receiving drugs directly from Conte.


Jones had never failed a drug test using the then-existing testing procedures, and insufficient evidence was found to bring charges regarding other untested performance enhancing drugs.

Just like Lance's coach has a history of "dope raping" athletes (giving them drugs without their knowledge). If he is giving Lance designer drugs without his approval, it gives Lance the high-ground to play stupid and point to his drug tests. Which are only "clean" because Lance was getting advanced notification of the tests and dodging them and / or have a steroid that is a few molecules different than "known" steroids. Lance isn't unscathed - Remember in '99 the whole saddlesore cream incident to explain away corticosteroid levels?

It has been testified that Armstrong's cancer may have been a result of his past drug use. Kinda ruins his whole moral highground with his whole cancer survivor schtick.

Andreu testified that while visiting Armstrong in the hospital for treatment of testicular cancer in 1996, Andreu overheard Armstrong tell his oncologist that he had used “steroids, testosterone, cortisone, growth hormone and EPO [an illegal performance-enhancing drug].”

Where there is smoke, there is fire? In this case there is smoke, smouldering embers, ashes, gasoline, used matches, and people close to Lance saying they saw the fire burning bright for years.

Lance knows the jig is up. Dude is, was, and will always be a fraud. He just happened to be the best fraud (in a sport full of them) for many years.

[SliceOfLife]

There has to be some kind of standards established, and they were. So get over it. Armstrong has passed hundreds of tests over the decades. There comes a point where enough, is really enough. How would anybody here feel if the US government were to spend decades trying to "find" some reason why your business was wildly successful. Stopping by in the middle of the night and demanding that you come across with yet another sample.

This is just old world loser jealousy surfacing. Year after year, decade after decade! When does the status of limitations finally kick in? I too would eventually fold under the pressure and I can assure you that, even at the age of 60, I have never folded when I stood on solid ground. To beat someone down both financially and physically for that long a period just shows what bureaucrats can do to ruin your life.

Boycott the Tour! I personally have had enough of their BS



Later,
Richard

Old world jealousy is making a US anti-doping agency persecute him?

[rajagra]

Something stinks. Why did the USADA express disappointment when Armstrong said he would throw in the towel? Shouldn't they be over the moon that he is no longer contesting their accusations? Smacks of a bully-boy organisation wanting to flex its muscles and put the fear of God into athletes, and being angry at being denied the chance to put on a show.

I'm sure that now the process is a done deal, the USADA will be happy to make ALL the evidence available for public inspection. Total transparency. Likely, do you think???

[riooso]

I hope your not this naive. Blaming the Govt, Old World Jealousy, and the Tour for Lances indiscretions?

You can not deny that while in Europe that Americans riders are subjected to many misdeeds like sabotage of equipment, being spat upon, given food laced with hormones, and the list is long.

I understand, and can appreciate, what you have indicated about the possibility that Lance may be dirty but the fact remains that if he submitted and passed the tests then by all "standards" he was clean. If that premise is not to be excepted then the same amount of time and money should be spent on all the riders. They all should be subjected to the decades of rabid intimidation that Lance has been subjected to.

Later,
Richard

[k2clones29]

Something stinks. Why did the USADA express disappointment when Armstrong said he would throw in the towel? Shouldn't they be over the moon that he is no longer contesting their accusations? Smacks of a bully-boy organisation wanting to flex its muscles and put the fear of God into athletes, and being angry at being denied the chance to put on a show.

I'm sure that now the process is a done deal, the USADA will be happy to make ALL the evidence available for public inspection. Total transparency. Likely, do you think???

I think the rationale for the disappointment stemmed from the fact that his not contesting the allegations was tantamount to an admission of them.

[Pebcak]

I think the rationale for the disappointment stemmed from the fact that his not contesting the allegations was tantamount to an admission of them.

The problem as I see it is that he's been contesting the allegations since I believe 1999, how many years would be sufficient? Not to mention how many times does one have to go through the same fight before you throw up your hands and say to heck with it.

[BeeSeeDub]

Posted by a dear friend of mine on Facebook:

"Lance - your book got me through some scary days. The witch hunt is over. You'll always be a winner to me."

Sums it up for me too.

[SliceOfLife]

but the fact remains that if he submitted and passed the tests then by all "standards" he was clean. If that premise is not to be excepted then the same amount of time and money should be spent on all the riders.

Except he didn't. He dodged tests on more than one occasion. All the tests they GOT from him passed because he didn't TAKE any tests he wasn't going to pass.

And it's a waste of money spending it testing the losers. Of course someone who wins will be under higher scrutiny. Someone who wins seven times straight... well yeah. Is there clearly an element of personal vendetta on the part of the guys chasing Lance? I think so. But here's the thing: I think that vendetta stems from the fact that they are pissed he's so good at getting away with it. If my job was to catch people who cheated, and some guy comes along, cheats and wins an absolutely ridiculous amount of times, then passes the tests, avoids the tests that WOULD catch him and gets away with it, and still has public opinion on his side while he thumbs his nose at the very thing that I spend 8+ hours a day of MY TIME trying to enforce and has the audacity to act innocent and persecuted, making me look like the bad guy for trying to do my job? You better believe I'd have a vendetta against him. These guys are trying to catch a cheat, and people are calling them horrible things because they don't approve of their doing their jobs.

[rajagra]

Except he didn't. He dodged tests on more than one occasion. All the tests they GOT from him passed because he didn't TAKE any tests he wasn't going to pass.

Failure to obtain proof is not proof of failure.
If not taking a test is considered a problem, then there should be a clear-cut rule that missing a test makes you ineligible for the competition right away - not kept hanging over you like the Sword of Damocles for years after.
Not sure what you mean by dodging tests. There would clearly be a difference between breaking out of a test centre and doing a runner, versus not turning up when a request has been issued (and possibly not communicated.)
Edit> Judging by this all of the evidence is witness testimony. So the question is why did these people all give evidence? If it was all down to extreme pressure from the USADA, doesn't that taint the evidence?

[cstone28]

Failure to obtain proof is not proof of failure.
If not taking a test is considered a problem, then there should be a clear-cut rule that missing a test makes you ineligible for the competition right away - not kept hanging over you like the Sword of Damocles for years after.

There is. Michael Rasmussen was fired from his team and kicked out of the 2007 TdeF for lying about his whereabouts and not making himself available for doping controls. All while having an insurmountable lead with the yellow jersey.

[cluelessdude]

I think there's almost no doubt he was doping. There are records of his bypassing surprise tests and the testing agency has pretty much said they've known all along he (and others) were getting tipped off about the tests. Really the testing process is extremely sloppily done.

At one point there was a surprise test, Armstrong claimed that he didn't believe the testers documents. He then had his manager stall the tester (who was supposed to have sight on Armstrong the whole time), and snuck away to "take a shower" before finally providing the sample. The tester made some kind of mistake in the paperwork, so Armstrong got away with it. The whole process seems very half-assed and easy to bypass.

Can they prove he did it? Probably not. If they could it wouldn't have taken this long. But I think that there's enough out there that any rational person will see his guilt even if it isn't proven sufficiently to punish him for it. And I feel he no doubt cares more about maintaining the positive public opinion than avoiding these punishments. He realizes that his foundation would likely be hurt more from the public being made widely aware that he doped and lied about it than this option which is to maintain his innocence, and look guilty to some and persecuted to others.

Well said. There is almost no doubt he doped.

[sir-nix-alot]

You can not deny that while in Europe that Americans riders are subjected to many misdeeds like sabotage of equipment, being spat upon, given food laced with hormones, and the list is long.

I understand, and can appreciate, what you have indicated about the possibility that Lance may be dirty but the fact remains that if he submitted and passed the tests then by all "standards" he was clean. If that premise is not to be excepted then the same amount of time and money should be spent on all the riders. They all should be subjected to the decades of rabid intimidation that Lance has been subjected to.

Later,
Richard

Not sure how their treatment in Europe relates to an athlete obtaining an unfair advantage by doping.

If your stickin with the "passed the test" stance, I guess we are going to have to disagree on what "clean" is. Inventing a steroid that has no name (for the sole purpose of passing tests) and having Chris Carmichael administer to Lance (who knows they need to be hiding this activity which is why he hired Carmichael in the first place) who passes a test because that steroid is not known to the World and is not on a banned steroid list - is not clean - it is about as filthy as you can get.

Someone else said it first, but the 7 time winner is going to get more scrutiny than the guy that finished last. But in reality, these guys should be embarrassed that they are cheating. Can you imagine doing interviews after slaughtering your competition knowing that you have gone out of your way to cheat? Imagine what it would feel like when someone tells you to your face what an inspiration you are, knowing you got your advantage through cheating? I'd feel like a schmuck.