Welsh Thuri Vs Coti Vs Arki

[Rschan]

Well Gents the topic speaks louder than the description,
Your feed back will be great if it contains things like Keenness, smoothness and of course best bang for buck.

If you have all three what would be your regular finisher from the above?

( As I know this is highly YMMV thing its interesting to see the common champ)

[davew]

Every one of them has some concession. To get the level of keenness of a purple slate hone out of a coticule takes more work. To get the level of coti comfort out of the purple slate takes some slurry and with that goes away some of the keenness. Same with an arkansas, if you can muddle through the strokes it takes to use a well conditioned black or trans arkansas up to acceptable keenness, it might be a bit harsh, and probably will still be less keen than the purple slate.

I'm only mentioning purple slate because I *did* get one of the black slates that was advertised as 15k, but I didn't find it to be any finer than the purple. On chisels , the purple definitely improves edges off of both of my black ark and trans ark (the arks are similar), but chisels are a bit different than razors, because you allow yourself to apply some pressure with them. The particles themselves in the slates are definitely finer than ark particles, and they definite cut a little more brash.

If I could only have one of those and money was an issue, it'd be the purple slate, and I'd use it on water so I could go back and forth easily with the slurry stone.

In reality, I would introduce the big 8x3 chinese stone from woodcraft to this supposing you have a way to do the initial flattening. I *had* of the ones that has a bit of veining on the surface and it was as good of a razor finisher as any of the above, and with a nagura for prefinishing, it was plenty fast. The only way I'd call it a slow stone is if it had settled in and you went directly to clear water with it off of a 6k type synthetic edge. With light pressure, that would take a while to work through, but with some slurry of the stone itself or with a nagura, it is plenty fast to do all of the final finishing.

I got another chinese stone from ebay, and it wasn't as good. Not close, even, I'd call it too soft and unsuitable for comparison to the one from woodcraft, but who knows if the ones from woodcraft are always the same. if you live in a metro area and can go look at the stones and you see one with the veins on the surface, that's what I'd get if budget mattered.

[tomjr]

i have 2 c12k stones and they both are capable finishers. i think they are a very good choice.

[Rekonball]

I have a trans ark. stone and mine seems to be a little coarser than the 10k chinese that I own. I sounds like you want more than your stones can give. When I got into honing I would home my razors to death but I found them giving a better shave if I didn't do very much fine honing. After an try not to over hone it some time.

[Wid]

Really? I have one of each hone mentioned. Each one can give a very nice edge on their own. The Coticule will give up a real smooth but yet a keen edge. The Welsh slate will give a bit keener edge but gives up a bit in smoothness. My trans arky is like a bit of each, it gives a very keen edge but yet has the smoothness of a coti like edge.

My arky has to be 12K + I'd say. Its surface is at least as smooth as my Jnat but harder than hell.

[Woodash]

What? You don't like flim?

[Wid]

What? You don't like flim?

I have plenty of that too.

[Fast Eddie]

I find that the stone we are calling a Welsh Thuringian is a decent finisher. I have had success by following this stone with about 4 - 5 laps on a balsa bench strop lightly coated with .5 micron Chromium Oxide paste fron Hand America.

Most finishing stones will serve you well if you use the right amount of slurry and the right number of laps and then dilute to clear water however I don''t usually dilute all the way to clear on my Japanese natural stones.

Fast

[jeffzeitlin]

+1 with Wid. I go from my 8k to a Jnat then 20 strokes on a surgical black Arki. I prefer a keen sharp edge.

[Gamma]

After owning a bunch of Thuris and Cotis and Arks - I think the best finisher is me, not any particular stone. I'm no honemeister, but I can get a decent edge on my razors here and when I choose a different stone to finish on, it's not a matter of getting a better edge - it's a matter of getting a different edge.

I've wanted to buy the higher grit Welsh slate, just to see what it's about mostly. I had the other two Welsh hones and wasn't impressed so that thought faded. I don't want to sink 80 bucks into what will turn into being a paperweight.

[Rschan]

So what about Coti followd by an Jnat?

I heard Jnats are mystic stones that it takes lots of practice?

So are there any place to get a Jnat under $100 which is capable being a nice finisher?

[Wid]

Jnat after a coticule works great. The only Jnats (2 of them) I have bought was from JNS.

[Gamma]

There are some good deals out there - Takeshi had some really sweet wallet-friendly Ozukos and Nakayama Koppas recently.

[smalltank]

I use my vintage combo coti..bbw to yellow..3 drops of oil and 50 laps each side for touchups..

[danjared]

I heard Jnats are mystic stones that it takes lots of practice?

They both take a lot of practice. Japanese naturals are just more exotic.

[shakin_jake]

So what about Coti followd by an Jnat?

~~~go for it. you know you want to Let's put it this way...I know you've played around with cotis for some time as I recall seeing you post about cotis here and on Bart's new and old site, so you've been around the coti and know what to expect, and since you're asking about finishers, you're lookin to step up your game, right? in my opinion and experience, the J-Nat is your next logical step, if you're looking for a different, possibly sharper finish experience. I have been using coticules since March of last year and love them. I've only begun using one J-Nat as a finisher for maybe 5 weeks now?, I forget exactly when it made it's way here yet I've used it on approx. 7 razors so far, after finishing on coticules then going to the J-Nat and I'm picking up a solid HHT point on top of what I get from using any of my cotis. I typically get HHT2 off the coticule then a solid HHT3 after stropping using the coticule. Once in a great while I would see HHT3 from the stone and HHT4 after stropping on linen/leather (after the coticule), but whenever I finish using the J-Nat I have, I'm seeing a solid HHT4 after stropping, and I'm getting the HHT4 after shaving and stropping again and again same blade, so seat of the pants experience tells me the J-Nat edge I'm getting off the stone I have, has an edge over finishing using my coticules

i should mention, after being glamorized shaving off a J-Nat, I've returned to using a coticule finish on a few razors (for comparasons sake and the coti edge to me feels softer, friendlier, nicer. I wouldn't call the J-Nat edge harsh but IMO, the J-Nat to me feels sharper and you lose some smoothness compared to a coti edge. they are two distintcly different edges

I heard Jnats are mystic stones that it takes lots of practice?

~~~not in my experience. I too had heard that many new to the J-Nat hone did not get stellar results from the git. Again, my experience has been different, and worth noting, I'm using it as a finisher. I've gotten nothin (horrible English, I know=:-) but great edges off the J-Nat I have each and everytime I've used it (approx. 7 uses), and I have always used the J-Nat after finishing with coti. here's the stone I bought as it came to me (before I lapped it)

it's Ozuku Asagi, it measures approx. 5 & 5/8" X 3.25", 7/16" thick after lapping. How I use it, I build a slurry on the wet stone using nagura from the same vein, supplied by the vendor. I make the slurry milk like, maybe a little light such as on the light side of milk but still thick, if that makes sense. So far, I start out using 1/2 strokes, changing up to x strokes, swaying X's, and as the slurry dries I add water keeping it wet. And like using a coticule, I do dilutions so while I'm hoing I'm thinning out the concentration and I take my time thinning. IOW, I don't rush it

Speaking strictly for myself, anymore when I hone on coticule and now this J-Nat, I wait til the edge tells me it's ready. It's a feeling more than anything else, and I feel how the edge interacts with the stone through my fingers through the shank of the razor. I get the same message when it's done from both types of stones. You get to a certain point and you know the edge will not progress. it more or less stops progressing, you know you're there. I'll do some light laps on water only with the J-nat at the end but not many. Another thing too with the J-Nat and how you know (how I know) you're/I'm done. the edge sucks up to the stone's surface like a magnet

that's kind of a simplistic way I use the J-Nat I have. I'm sure better honers can eke out an HHT5 after stropping on the same rock I'm using yet I'm quite satisified with the eges I get from cotis and this J-Nat using the ways that I use them. After all, I'm using these rocks to satisfy none other than myself, although occasionally I hone for others

So are there any place to get a Jnat under $100 which is capable being a nice finisher?

~~~PM Paco, he's had good luck buying J-Nat stones from an ebay vendor (330mate?) I paid approx. $150 shipped for the J-nat I have from JNS (japanese natural stones)


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

[Rschan]

Here is big thank you for Jake and the rest of the guys for all your inputs

[paco664]

if you are careful you can find one in the 100-125$ range....... i have gotten lucky 2 times buying off ebay using the "best offer" button....

[Rschan]

I saw your purchase and still feel bit nervous because of the negative comments about the seller

[Gamma]

I have not purchased an Awase from Nakaoka-san (330Mate), but I have picked up several pieces of Iyoto from him. All of those transactions were excellent.

He gets a bad rap from people sometimes, but I do believe that a significant amont of that commentary begins with the agendas of competing sellers and/or their shills.