All I know about sharpening knives

[inspiringK]

This is all I know about knife sharpening.
I won't pretend to have much knowledge, but want to share all I have
There are a few chunks of info, so I will stagger my posts.

A while ago, I started this thread simply asking for some advice on knife sharpening. You can see that I am by no means an experienced knife sharpening guru. As is often the case at B&B, I asked the informed members a reasonably simple question hoping to get a quick solution to a small problem and walked away with the seed of a new fixation.

From time to time, questions regarding knife sharpening crop up here in B&B and many people I have spoken outside of the forum seem to have more questions than answers, it appears this is an area that many of us would like to know more about. I have done a lot of info searching over the last year and have come across a lot of good advice. I have also managed to put edges on my knives that make me quite pleased. While it is still limited enough to fit in a coin purse, I thought I would compile the extent of my knowledge on this thread in the hopes that it may be helpful to the next person looking for a sharper edge.

A caveat
I didn’t add YMMV at the end of every sentence. This is not a “true and false” thread, I am sharing my knowledge, belief and experience. I try to be as frank and honest as possible without concern for rousing differing opinion.

First off, these are the five popular knife sharpening options that I don’t use.
1. Lansky Style Systems:
This is an affordable system that ensures you keep the correct angle between stone and blade, which is really handy. It works with honing oil, which I kind of like and find less messy than stones that work with water (because water stones often create a coloured slurry that stains everything). My problem is that this setup feels clumsy and clanky to use. Yes you retain the perfect angle, but the system doesn’t make it easy to use enough pressure (pressure is essential for sharpening knives). Also, the clamp system is a hassle to get perfect and is really not made for knives over 6 inches long. This is perfect for hunting knives though. Lastly, because the stones are too small to be efficient, they had to make the progression in grit coarser than would be ideal by going from 70 grit and ending at 1000; you should not really touch a kitchen knife with 70 grit, and you want the option of going over 1000 grit if need be (or even beyond their 2000 grit special order option).

2. Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker:
I have not used this system personally and see no reason to. If you like the Lansky system and want something that has similar faults and advantages, my guess is that this is a good option. It is popular nowadays.

3. Doohickeys:
These come in various shapes and sizes. If all you want is a quick way to get a sort of crappy edge to be less sort of crappy, get one of these. Hell, get three, they are cheap, easy to store and actually do have some effect on the edge. They are not nearly as bad as sharpening snobs suggest they are, but just not as good as you and I would like them to be.

4. Chef’s Choice Style Sharpener:
A friend of mine has one of these asked me to play around with it a bit. My major concern is that it removes a lot of metal and does not do so evenly. His knives look like they have gradual waves running along the blade (i.e. had the blade been from a perfectly straight clever, there would now be areas where the blade does not quite touch the cutting board). This may be user error, but suspect the system has this effect often. This is a really fancy doohickey that works with electricity. If you don’t mind dropping $100 or more and running the risk of damaging your blades, this one is for you. It is quick, user friendly and effective. Though, if you are comfortable with some of the sharpening jargon, the product information write-ups for these products may make you barf.

5. Arkansas Oil Stones:
This is the first free hand stone type that I tried out. Yes, you have to go freehand to use them, but you are now out of the clamp and doohickey camp, it feels good

These stones are fairly inexpensive and require little maintenance. They require honing oil, which is easy to find and I prefer over having to soak a stone in water and then deal with the slurry created when sharpening. The two I have were perfectly flat when I bought them and are still perfect. They don’t seem to wear at all, I just assume it is magic. If you only want one stone, don’t want any extra hassle and want it to last forever, picking up a hard Arkansas stone may be the way to go. My gripe is that these stones cut slowly. They polish edges well, but be ready to put in a lot of time if you are looking to do edge repair or reset the bevel on a blade, especially if you are dealing with harder steal. Also, if ever one needs to be lapped, I have no idea how I would accomplish that, but suffice it to say that I would need to set aside a long weekend to do so.

My preferred gear.
Japanese Waterstones:
These come in many brands and types, there are synthetic and natural, expensive and more affordable, and have more grit choices than the alternative options. They cut quicker than Arkansas stones and are more versatile than the gadgets. Here is the catch, you have to soak some of them for up to 20 minutes in water, they need to be lapped (flattened) often, are the most messy to work with, and require practice with proper technique (not skill, practice with proper technique). In return, they produce an edge that no other option can.

If you want more info on Waterstones, Ouch has a great thread where he shows off some rocks. As a bonus, the thread may be the best discussion and advice on sharpening available on the net. Lee Valley also does a good test comparison of some stones.

[inspiringK]

Excellent, about 24 hours went by and no one has said that my writing sucks or that negative comments about the Spyderco Sharpmaker are sacrilegious

Here is my next box of info: How I sharpen knives.

This is my favourite current setup.

1. Gear

For stones, here I have all Norton. Among the stone nuts, Nortons don’t seem to come up much, there are a number of different brands that get a lot more attention, so I assume they offer something Norton does not. I picked these up because they are locally available and not too pricey. Thanks to Alacrity59's advice, I found them at Lee Valley where I paid $37 for the 220 grit 1000 grit combo and around $60 for the 4k/8k (really I can’t remember what I paid for this stone, right now it is listed as $79, but I think I paid less).

2. Prep

At this stage, my stones have been soaking in water for 20 minutes. I have a towel down on the kitchen counter to grip the stand that conveniently comes with Norton stones. I prefer the counter to a lower table because I really need to stand when sharpening, this allows me better movement and the ability to keep constant pressure on the blade. I have a little spray bottle with warm water set to mist. A sponge for spills and enough excess towel to wipe the blade on (by the way, the stones will stain the towel, so choose one wisely).

3. Lapping

Before using a waterstone, it needs to be flat. Last week, I reset the bevel on three German knives with this 220 grit stone, the result is a nice dip in the middle. Before using any of the stones, I will flatten them, but the softer 220 grit shows wear the best, so I used it for pictures. Notice how you can see orange between the stone and steel, that is a dead giveaway that the stone needs lapping.

I simply use a steel to know when the stone is flat. Others use sharpies or pencil to draw a grid on the stone, this is less effective than the steel because the markings disappear before the stone is truly flat. Apparently a diamond lapping plate is the best thing for flattening stones. I don’t have one because I have never had trouble flattening a stone. Years ago I bought this long skinny blue stone (seen in the picture) for $7 delivered. It is probably around 400 grit and is effective for leveling every waterstone I own. I happen to have a flat slab of granite and 220 grit wet/dry sandpaper which is another popular lapping tool and have not felt a need to use it.

After about 3 minutes of lapping and using intermittent sprays of water, as you can see below, the stone is flat.

I then use that little metal file to gently round off the edges of the stone. This prevents creating unnecessary scratches on the knife while sharpening and also makes it less likely that a chip of stone may break off.

[inspiringK]

4. Putting Steel to Stone

First off, this knife is the least used knife we own. In order to display the sharpening progressions well, I widened the bevel on it which makes it easier to see the effect each stone has on the knife. Essentially I made the cutting angle more acute to show more cutting edge. It is sort of a mid grade quality utility knife, but the odd size means that we never use it; the blade is too long to be a nice paring knife, too short for slicing, too wide for filleting and too small for chopping. So it usually just serves as a test knife for me.


Notice that I am holding the blade at about a 45* angle from right to left (i.e. the tip is pointing away from me). This makes it easier to keep a consistent angle between stone and blade, allows me to cover more steel per stroke and (as I go over the corners slightly with this technique) use more of the stone to avoid hollowing out the middle. It is easier to control the knife if the edge is facing me (i.e. I am pulling the cutting edge toward my body).

My right hand holds the knife firmly, with this hand I grip the spine as close to the stone as possible for controlling the blade and don’t just grip the knife by the handle. This is very important for retaining control and a consistent angle between stone and blade. My free hand then puts pressure directly onto the cutting edge. The tips of my fingers are literally a millimetre or less from the stone. If these fingers are any further towards the blade spine I cannot possibly keep the edge to stone angle consistent, if they are any closer to the stone I get red slurry when I pull the knife back To sharpen the other side, I invert this grip by putting my left hand on spine near the handle and press the edge down with my right while facing the cutting edge toward me.

To establish the angle between blade and stone, there are two tricks. One is to put two pennies underneath the spine of the knife, the other is to colour the length of the cutting edge with a sharpie (so you know you have the right angle when you grind away all the sharpie). For me, I think the best is to go by feel and sight. I put the blade to stone and try to see at what angle the edge is completely on the stone or lift the spine off the stone with cutting edge down until I feel like I can feel the cutting edge flat on the stone. Realistically though, if you start with 220 grit or something dangerous like that (dangerous because it removes a lot of metal), then you have the luxury of finding an angle that feels comfortable to you and looks right, as long as it is close to the factory bevel, the 220 will quickly eliminate the difference and you will be perfect into the polishing stones as long as you retain the grip that was comfortable to you before
This video has some great discussion about finding the angle and is worth watching for anyone who sharpens knives.

5. The Motion

From here all I do is move the knife straight up the stone and then pull straight back, this completes one lap. I don’t lift the blade off the stone, don’t change blade angle, do not let off pressure, do not change grip or finger position at all. This is a straight up and down motion only, I do not try sliding the knife from bolster to tip across the stone, because it is not possible to keep a consistent angle and pressure with that motion.


With this first movement, I feel that I have only focussed on the part of the blade nearest the bolster. When I am satisfied that I have completed enough laps on that section of the blade, I change the knife position in my grip so that I hit the centre of the knife, then a third time to hit the part nearest the tip, then the tip usually requires its own grip position too.

As the profile curves more when it nears the tip, less steel touches stone per lap. With an 8 inch santoku that has a flatter profile I can cover the entire blade changing grip only three times, my curving 5 inch deboning knife requires 4 grip changes. When I have covered all 3 or 4 sections of the blade, I flip it over and do the other side. Below, I am focussing on the other side of the blade, notice the mirror image grip, and sharpening the third section of this blade (nearest the tip, but not the tip itself yet).

6. The Burr

Ah yes, the ever talked about burr. A year from now, I am sure I will revisit this thread and regret sharing my utter disregard for the fabled burr
But, for now, I will stay honest about what I actually do and will resist the urge to agree with what all the cool kids are saying. I don’t spend a single moment looking for the burr anymore, of late the thought doesn’t even cross my mind. On higher grit stones the burr is almost nonexistent anyway, but I don’t even look for it in the lower grits anymore.

It doesn’t meen that forming a burr isn’t essential, it just means that I no longer bother to make sure I have formed one. This is the way I see it, let’s use an analogy – young priming guys who like girls often become obsessed about finding a certain folkloric part of the female anatomy. Rather than enjoy the process by putting in measured effort and focussing on the outcome, unseasoned participants of the carnal acts waste momentum and energy wanting to know “is this it? what about now? and now? this is it right? oh, I thought I had it that time?”. More experienced practitioners know how much to do in order to ensure satisfactory results, and don’t mind if they end up doing a bit more than may have been needed. The vets don’t stop incessantly to fixate on the minutia of the method, rather they focus on the act and judge their performance by the final outcome. Have a look at this video if you still haven’t figured out what I am talking about [Link Removed].

7. Progressing Through Stones

So, without looking for the burr, you may ask, how do I know to move to the next stone? Well, I follow a lap progression guide that I have found effective. Before sharpening a knife, I look at and feel the edge to know where I should start and then decide how to proceed from there. On the knife I used for most of these pictures, I used about the same lap progression that I would with a knife I have never sharpened before. I completed 15 laps on each section of the blade (15 laps on the section nearest the bolster, then change grip to do 15 on middle section, 15 on section 3, 15 on the tip). So, I have physically completed 60 laps, but each part of the blade has really only seen 15. Then flip the blade and do 15 on the other side. I then (spin the stone 180* to ensure even wear and) do 12 laps on each side, then 8, then 5, then 3. In other words, each part of the blade saw a total of 43 laps on each side. Check by eye to see if there are any visible flaws or areas needing extra work, if not, move to the next stone.

This is a look at the blade coming off the 220 grit after 15, 12, 8, 5, and 3 laps on each side of the blade on every section. The bevel is set here, so the tough part is done, but there are deep scratches that show the edge needs more work.


On a damaged edge or one that needs a new bevel set, the progression may be more like 30 flip 30, 25 flip 25, 20 flip 20, 16 flip 16, 12 flip 12, 8 flip 8, 5 flip 5, 3 flip 3, but this would be the extreme. I do as much as I think needs to be done with the first stone, then max 15, 12, 8, 5, 3 on the intermediate stones, then typically start at 20 or more on whatever stone I decide to finish on. With a knife in good condition that needs no bevel work, I would lap - 8, 5, then 3 times on the 220 - 8, 5, 3 on 1000 grit - 8, 5, 3 on 4000 – and finish with 20, 16, 12, 8, 5, 3 on 8000 grit.

You can often see if an edge needs more work somewhere. For instance, see this knife that really lacked finishing (right from the factory). After I completed just a few laps on the 220, the irregularity becomes obvious. This is an example of a great blade that needed some edge work on stones to get it performing the way the knife deserves to. It now cuts perfectly and is a joy to use.

[Alacrity59]

Great thread and great pics. I always like to see how other folk sharpen their gear. I'm sure you will agree that once you feel the difference sharpness makes you crave having sharp knives at all times.

[ouch]

Fantastic thread!

I love your 'don't over think it' approach. Just get in there and have at it, and all of your questions will become self evident. And don't worry about which stones you use- there are so many on the market, even the most hardcore nut can't have them all, nor would he need to. Nortons have probably sharpened millions of knives, and were the defacto choice before some of the current darlings hit the market (this seems particularly true in honing razors). Grit size is more important than brand, and 220/1K/4K/8K should cover all of your needs.

Sabatier makes some nice knives, and it's great to see your newfound ability breathe new life into them. Now you have an excuse to get some harder steel, where the results of your labors will really shine.

[inspiringK]

Great thread and great pics. I always like to see how other folk sharpen their gear. I'm sure you will agree that once you feel the difference sharpness makes you crave having sharp knives at all times.

Thanks, yes I enjoyed being in the kitchen in the past, but it is even more of a pleasure when I look forward to using the knives. Having a dull knife almost seems like a waste of good steel to me now. I was using a friend's (doohickey sharpened) knives for prepping limes, lemons, and mint for drinks at his house over the weekend and almost felt like I was cutting with a spoon. It really does make a big difference when a knife is sharpened well.

Sabatier makes some nice knives, and it's great to see your newfound ability breathe new life into them. Now you have an excuse to get some harder steel, where the results of your labors will really shine.

Ah yes, the Sab is a really nice piece of steel and the stones really allow it to show it's full potential. I had a bit of buyer's remorse after purchasing the knife and realizing that the edge wasn't as sharp or as finished as the cheaper knives that I had already put to stone, but with some treatment and attention the knife improved to where I am happy with it and it is now good enough to be almost the only knife I use in the kitchen.

As far as the harder steels go, I have already decided my my next knife will have to be Japanese, but I am doing my best to hold off long enough to call it a Christmas gift to my self

[ouch]

As far as the harder steels go, I have already decided my my next knife will have to be Japanese, but I am doing my best to hold off long enough to call it a Christmas gift to my self

You already know which one I'm going to suggest, and no, it's not expensive at all- under a hunnerd.

[inspiringK]

The last installment

8. Keenness

After I was satisfied with the 220 stone, the bevel is set, any stone that follows this stage only refines the edge. I moved to the 1000 grit and completed 15, 12, 8, 5, and 3 laps to get the edge looking like this.


Notice that a lot of the deepest scratches are now gone. The edge is starting to look more refined and the knife feels sharp at this stage. If you only buy one waterstone, it should fall somewhere between 800 and 1200 grit. This 1000 grit stone is great, it cuts quick enough to do minor repair work but can also get the knife as sharp as would reasonably be required. With a few extra laps using light pressure and a careful hand, this stone can produce a finer edge than I was requiring at this stage.

9. Fine Tuning with stability, pressure, and slurry

After the 1000 grit, you are done, you have a sharp knife. But, (like I said to my wife years ago) I feel like there is no harm in going a little further

As the 4k/8k stone soaks, here are three quick fine tuning tips.

Stability

- I want the stone to be completely stable when I sharpen and so should you. In sharpening videos, these stone holders seem to be pretty handy, another option is flat rubber mat. Luckily, for me, Norton stones come with this handy case that both elevates the stone and holds it in place while sharpening.

Notice that the bracing tabs built for the case are slightly larger than the stone itself. To snug the stone into place and ensure it stays steady, I just use a few toothpicks.

Pressure

- I use pressure on the stones, the weight of the knife will not suffice when sharpening. Sometimes, for the final few passes on a particular stone, I will let off a little, but, in general, I use pressure.

According to the scale, I am using about 5 or 6 pounds of pressure to sharpen this fillet knife. I doubt I go over this weight, but also would not dip below it unless I wanted to give a final few polishing passes on a given stone. Here is a good video of a rare instance when a pro talks candidly about the necessity of pressure when sharpening.

Slurry

- Japanese sharpening stones, unlike Arkansas stones, sharpening through the slurry created by the particles of the stone being released. Think of it as shaving into the stone with steel and then creating mud out of those thin shaved layers of stone, the mud particles then abrade between steel and stone to effectively sharpen the knife. So, don’t spray or wash the slurry off your stones during the sharpening process. Lower grit stones create their own slurry just fine, but I find that the 4k and up stones do not. So, as you can see in the above picture, I use a nagura (slurry) stone for the higher grits. By rubbing the nagura on a higher grit stone before starting a lapping progression, I create a bit of a slurry to start the process off quickly, clean the stone of metal filings, and lap (flatten) imperfections out of the stone. It doesn't make a big difference, but I feel it helps.

10. Going All the Way

Finer grit stones are really the glory stones. A sensible person stops at 1k and has a sharp knife. Going beyond the 1k creates a super keen edge that looks, cuts, and feels more refined in every way. The finer stones don’t just enable your knives to cut through food, they allow your knives to slip through without food being any the wiser. The first time that an overripe tomato will even know you have cut it and placed the slices on a sandwich is when it feels the hot sauce splashed onto it

After the 1k, I hit the 4k and did 15, 12, 8, 5, and 3 laps. This is what the edge looks like after that stone.


Notice the scratches are less pronounced than after the 1k. The edge is starting to look a little smoother and almost has a uniform matt finish at this stage. I really look at this stone as an intermediary between the 1k and 8k. It doesn’t improve the edge enough to justify using only the 4k after the 1k. Yes, it is smoother than the 1k, but if I wasn’t going to a higher grit after the 4k, I doubt the difference in edge keenness is enough to be noticeable. If I were to only have one stone after the 1k, I would make it an 8k or maybe a 6k. The jump from 1k straight to 8k is quite doable given a bit of extra effort.

Now the capstone! After the 4k, I switched to the 8k. I love what this stone does to knives. All the hard work that went into bevel setting really pays off when I use this stone to finish on. I completed a 20, 16, 12, 8, 5, and 3 lap progression on the 8k to get this edge.


Almost all the scratches are gone. The edge is smooth and reflective enough to do your makeup in (if you are into that sort of thing), notice how you can now clearly see my camera reflecting in the edge. The knife looks great and cuts better. At this stage, your knife is sharp to the extent that little mishaps that would previously have been harmless become bleeding cuts that you only notice about 30 seconds after the damage is done. Don’t be surprised to see some red slurry later on in the 8k lap progression. It’s lovely to have this edge and most knives deserve to experience this keenness at least once.

Moving to a 12k stone or maybe a pasted strop can be a next step, but I don’t think it does anything for the edge performance. I jumped straight to a leather strop, but also only did this for the picture. I feel there is some improved polishing.

11. Checking the Final Product

All said and done, the edge looks like this.


Notice the edge width is completely uniform throughout (save for near the bolster) and the edge finish is uniform throughout. Because of the sharpening method I use, 45* angle between tip and heel, knives with a pronounced bolster have this area of unpolished edge near the heel. It doesn’t really affect performance, a smarter person may even call it a grind termination radius
There are some options if I wanted to overcome this minor concern. Option one is to sharpen that area without using a 45* angle, the next (my favourite) is to grind the bolster down a little and reduce it to the point where is does not affect sharpening, the third and smartest option is to buy knives that don’t bother with the useless bolster in the first place.

All said and done, the edge should now be sharp enough for any kitchen needs. It can cut phone book paper without tearing at all. It can shave arm hair too if you like that test. I used this knife to take over half an inch off my sideburns (WTG) and had no irritation whatsoever. Most importantly, it is sharp enough to enjoy using during food prep and makes me look forward to doing more in the kitchen.
Hope you don’t mind me sharing in such detail

[Slowhand]

You already know which one I'm going to suggest, and no, it's not expensive at all- under a hunnerd.

I'd like to know what you'll suggest. I'm going to dive into Japanese soon.

Well, currently using a Japanese-style line from Calphalon (Katana). They've been good knives for the 5 or 6 years I've had them. But, I'm going to start replacing them one at a time over time.

Thanks.

[YetiDave]

I can never seem to get a hugely sharp edge on my knives working from 200 to 8k, the edge is polished well but won't shave arm hair or anything. It always seems to be the honing steel that pushes them from polished but not overly sharp to lunatic sharp. FYI my main knives are Chinese style cleavers and do take a VERY sharp edge, I've just clearly not got my angles fixed well enough to get that edge without a steel

[ouch]

I'd like to know what you'll suggest. I'm going to dive into Japanese soon.

Well, currently using a Japanese-style line from Calphalon (Katana). They've been good knives for the 5 or 6 years I've had them. But, I'm going to start replacing them one at a time over time.

Thanks.

I'd start here.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojirodpseries.html

[ouch]

Thanks a lot, InspirngK. You're a real pal. Reading this thread forced me to stop by Korin and pick up another stone yesterday. After getting rid of a few, I'm back up to 14.


Just when I thought I was getting a handle on this...........

[inspiringK]

Thanks a lot, InspirngK. You're a real pal. Reading this thread forced me to stop by Korin and pick up another stone yesterday. After getting rid of a few, I'm back up to 14.


Just when I thought I was getting a handle on this...........

Excellent!


And to boot, I am immune to your DP series suggestions, they are banned in Canada.

Actually, it is not that dramatic, those are great looking knives and tough to find a comparable alternative at the price. I was ready to make it an early Christmas on Monday by just ordering an innocent little pairing knife, but for some odd reason Chef Knives to Go won't ship them to Canada. They will ship other knives here, just not the DPs???? My guess is that it has something to do with market rights in a given region, they call it "vendor restrictions". The same is true for Cutlery to Go. Our alternative is Knifewear who have taken the liberty of tacking an extra $20 on the prices!

I can never seem to get a hugely sharp edge on my knives working from 200 to 8k, the edge is polished well but won't shave arm hair or anything. It always seems to be the honing steel that pushes them from polished but not overly sharp to lunatic sharp. FYI my main knives are Chinese style cleavers and do take a VERY sharp edge, I've just clearly not got my angles fixed well enough to get that edge without a steel

Just shows how different strokes works for different folks. The steel does nothing for my knives other than perhaps keeping the edge in good condition for longer. The polishing stones do little more than just polish, so I would have thought that you need to make sure you have your bevel set before moving to the higher grits - I assume any flaw in sharpening probably occurs at the lower grits. But if your steel brings out a sharp edge, I guess there is no need to think about it much, just enjoy the sharp edge

[pdillon]

Awesome thread and very timely! I just read through Ouch's earlier thread. I'm tired of having dull knives. My birthday is coming up in a few months, so I'm going to get some stones and I think the Tojiro 240mm Wa-Gyuto. There will definitely be more research between now and then.

Right now, the book An Edge in the Kitchen is waiting for pickup at my library. Anyone read this?

[OldSchoolYoungin]

Awesome thread and very timely! I just read through Ouch's earlier thread. I'm tired of having dull knives. My birthday is coming up in a few months, so I'm going to get some stones and I think the Tojiro 240mm Wa-Gyuto. There will definitely be more research between now and then.

Right now, the book An Edge in the Kitchen is waiting for pickup at my library. Anyone read this?

Yes, I have it. Great introduction to, well, an edge in the kitchen. Worth the money. Chad's a good writer and knows how to explain concepts in basic terms any newbie could understand.

[JBroida]

I dont know if you guys will find this helpful, but here's a playlist of sharpening stuff that i put together a while back
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ature=view_all