Disappointed Newbie

Two weeks ago, I got my DE razor in the mail. I was really pumped to finally try out what everyone has been raving about on this forum and other blogs. And frankly, I've been less than impressed. Perhaps, I was caught up in the whole idea of a close and comfortable shave--one like I've never felt before.

I got into "gourmet" shaving about 6 years ago. I bought some Anthony and Crabtree and Evelyn products (including a badger brush). The whole time I'd used my Fusion with relative success--that is while shaving with the grain. But I've been obsessed with that white whale--the comfortable against the grain shave. And the Fusion just couldn't perform. Then I found Mantic59's videos. I was lured into this idea of multiple passes. I even tried it with my Fusion without much success.

So after lengthy study, I bought an Edwin Jagger De89bl. I've tried 3 different blades: Derby Extra, Personna Reds, and Feather Platinums. The feather blades have definitely been the best. But nevertheless, the DE shaving has been a bit of a let-down. Here's why:

1. I still can't shave against the grain. The blade tugs instead of cutting and I shave a layer of skin off with the pass.
2. Even after 2 with the grain shaves (North-south) passes, I don't have as close of a shave as one pass with the fusion.
3. When I shave across the grain to get a closer shave, it becomes increasingly uncomfortable--much more than a fusion across the grain pass.

So help! I'm not ready to give up, but I'm pretty discouraged with the whole thing. At this point, I'd like to have at least a comfortable across the grain shave (although I still hope for that baby but smoothness that only against the grain gives).

Here's my routine:

When: Right after the shower
Pre-shave oil: My own concoction of 2 parts Castor oil; one-part olive oil; with some vitamin E and glycerin.
Shave Creme: Proraso new formulation
Brush: Pure badger hair (Crabtree and Evelyn)
Razor: Edwin Jagger De89bl
Blade: Feather Platinum
Post shave: Cold water; Thayer's alcohol-free witch hazel; Proraso Pre-post balm

I do 4-5 passes:
1-2 passes with the grain (North-south)
2 passes accross the grain (1st towards the nose; second towards the ear)
1 against the grain (only to try to get a closer shave)

A few things about angle and pressure. It seems to me that there's only really one cutting angle with this razor. Anything else (steeper or shallower) and the blade isn't touching my skin. Also, I try to keep as light of pressure that I can muster. But when I do so, the blade is barely getting to my face (read=not a close shave). When I apply any kind of pressure, I'm in the razor burn zone.

Any thoughts, tips, etc. is very appreciated!

Thanks everyone!

Chase

Well...from what you have, you should be able to get a very nice shave. Obviously you're not...so one has to look at a couple of different things.

1) The DE89 is a great shaver - but it's a fairly mild shaver - depending upon the thickness and coarseness of your beard - it may not be entirely what you are looking for.
2) You technique - cartridges require far less concern about angles, pressure, etc... If you feel that you're "spot on" with you technique, then we go back to #1.
3) Consider trying a different razor altogether.

One idea it to go with a considerably more aggressive DE razor - a couple of things come to mind. First, you can get an adjustable razor that will give you far more options than does the DE89. A Gillette Slim, Gillette Fatboy, Merkur Progress, Merkur Futur, Merkur Vision or Mergress come to mind - with the large number of adjustments available and the ability to dial your shave closeness up or down - it may prove very useful to you.

Another idea, is to simply go with a more aggressive fixed razor such as a Fatip, Muhle R41 or a Merkur Slant. If closeness isn't happening for you, any of those three will be a big change from your DE89.

And yet another option is to go with a much stiffer blade altogether and give SE shaving a shot. A Gem 1912 can be had cheaply as can an Open Comb Micromatic. They shave close and do so with a considerably stiffer blade than what you are experiencing with your DE89. You should also consider trying a Schick Injector out - very sharp blades, very stiff and the result is a very close shave.

I'm pretty sure that you won't need 4 passes with a R41, Slant, Fatip, an "opened up" Gillette or Merkur adjustable, 1912, OCMM or a Schick Injector. My guess is, maybe 2 to 3 passes and some touching up and you'll be far closer to what you are looking for than what the DE89 is giving you.

I know this will sounds weird, but you might need to experiment with soaps too. Creams are great, but Ive found when I was starting out, slick soaps really helped me get a closer shave. and watching more of Mantic59's and Geofatboy's videos worked as well.

Just dont give up man, 50K B&B users couldnt possibly be wrong!

1. If you haven't mapped your beard I'd do so and would only shave in this order: WTG, XTG, ATG.
2. I would get an aggressive razor such as: Muhle R41 (my favorite), or Merkur Futur.
3. Keep trying out different blades by getting a blade sampler.
4. You might be using too much pressure in order to get a closer shave. Use minimum pressure no matter what razor you use.

May I interest you in a Gillette Adjustable? Fatboy or Slim; take your pick. If it doesn't shave well enough, dial it up. Too close? Dial it down. Also, 5 passes may be excessive. Are you applying lubrication between each pass? These are some thoughts to consider.

quit foolin' around, try an open blade

garunteed to please
I just shaved with this razor (below)

got BBS going ATG, everywhere. You've tried the rest, now shave with the best...open blade razors!


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

I'm relatively new here, too - just three of months of DE shaving. So, with that in mind, perhaps your expectations are too high? I went towards DE shaving because I was tired of ingrown hairs, particularly on my neck, from a Mach 3. I'd say that my daily shaves are now fair to middling at best, but are also improving. My trouble areas remain my jawline and parts of my neck.

My number one improvement was building a better lather. Whether soap or cream, having that protection seriously helped. Number two was mapping my beard. I found that WTG was not North to South, but was North to Southwest/Southeast, respectively, along my cheeks. Number three is just technique. Keeping your elbow/wrist locked to keep the head at the same angle, finding the right pressure, using your off hand to stretch the skin (wetting fingers and rubbing them on an alum bloc to get better traction), etc. I don't do an ATG pass. I'm just not there yet. As I understand it, trying to do an ATG pass on your neck or mustache area is a recipe for disaster. I know it's never worked out for me when I've tried.

How long have your been DE shaving? It's definitely a learning curve. Before changing razors, consider giving it some more time to work on your technique. I've found that my most comfortable shaves came with my DE89, but my closest shaves have come with my Gillette NEW Long Comb and Merkur 37C Slant. With the last two, I think that comfort will come, eventually. Until then...lots of alum bloc stinging.

Good luck!

Locham said:

I don't do an ATG pass. I'm just not there yet. As I understand it, trying to do an ATG pass on your neck or mustache area is a recipe for disaster. I know it's never worked out for me when I've tried.

Click to expand...

~~~Typically, shavers that don't do well using ATG passes aren't using correct technique and that can mean a lot of different things. Some need to make more and better passes WTG and XTG before moving to ATG. Could also be too much blade angle, but getting your beard down to a very short stubble before ATG is key. Couild also be too much blade pressure, not enough slick/wet in one's lather

Some shavers ahve an easier time of it going ATG, being able to go ATG first pass w/no problem. Technique plays a huge part there and the confidence that comes from years of shaving

Speaking strictly for myself, I never had any problenms shaving with a traditional DE or SE safety razor when I picked up traditional wet shaving old school style with DE's and SE safety razors, but then I had 30 + years of cart experience prior and IMO, the mechanics are the same

Yet some new to wet shaving have problems with DE's mainly because they do not learn proper prep, use too much blade angle, pressure when none is needed, their lather isn't right, too dry, not slick


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

I won't agree with most and suggest that you don't get an aggressive razor yet.
What you do is learn your face. Going N-S and E-W, doesn't cut the same for everybody. Find out where your problem areas are and concentrate on your angle, find an optimal grip that works for you. Don't rush, it takes time, sometimes very long time, but you will be rewarded once you get it down.
Don't go for BBS, no need to do that while you learn, it will only frustrates you more and your face won't have time to heal between shaves. When you are ready, find that stubborn patch that just wont come off, lather just that area, dry your hand and stretch your skin just a bit, listen to it, it will come.
I am sure I will see you here in 2-3 months explaining the same thing to a brand new wet shaver, just like you are today.
Good luck sir!

You didn't mention stretching the skin. Try stretching the skin rather vigorously as you shave it. Don't go over the same area a bunch of strokes without relathering or re-wetting. Try cocking your razor so that one corner of the blade leads ahead of the other. This adds a slicing component to the stroke, increasing cutting power. That is an old straight razor trick. I also second the recommendation to try a straight, mainly for the reason that you yourself cited. There is only so much adjustment possible in the shave angle when using a DE. With a straight, you can get the shave angle down to as little as half the bevel angle, by laying the razor flat against the face. This is sometimes done when going ATG. I never do that because I don't like the drag of the spine on my face but for an ATG pass I do choke up on the shave angle until the spine is nearly touching my face.

If you are greatly troubled by ingrown hairs, back off the stretching a bit. Otherwise, keep trying increasing amounts of stretch until you start getting better shaves. That seems to be the main ingredient missing from your shave technique.

Are you shaving right after showering? Don't dry your face. Let the whiskers stay wet until you are able to lather up. If you are bowl lathering, try face lathering instead. Let the lather sit on your face a minute before having at it with the razor.

Try two WTG passes and then an ATG. You may find that to be less irritating.

Last but not least, reconsider whether or not you really need an ATG pass at all.

Take it easy, Grasshopper! Your kit is certainly good enough to give you a great shave, but it is up to you at the moment to develop your skills with practice. For the time being, please put the concern about results on the backburner and concentrate on making one pass WTG and one pass XTG until you become more consistent. As your lather-making develops and you become more comfortable with a DE, your results should improve and at that point, you can add another XTG pass in the opposite direction. Slowly allowing your skills to develop will let you enjoy comfortable shaves whilst working towards your goal, but don't forget that many, many people don't shave ATG because they do not find it worth the potential irritation.
Good luck!

barsuk said:

Don't go for BBS, no need to do that while you learn, it will only frustrates you more and your face won't have time to heal between shaves.

Click to expand...

~~~just using Steve's sentence here because I've seen more than one board member use it to justify *not* going ATG for a n00b, but first, if anyone is shaving so badly that their skin needs time to heal between shaves....well, all I can say is, you only hurt the one you love

The reason a majority of n00bs have problems shaving ATG is because they do not execute the prior passes needed well enough to use an ATGm pass, and it's not becuiase it's difficult to perform, it's because the shaver's beard is not wittled down enough to shave ATG

When you shave ATG, your razor blade's edge is following the hair shaft and with an ATG pass, the hair shaft is not deflecting the raor's edge, quite the opposite, it is steering the edge into the direction of growth and the edge ends up *into* the skin, if there is enough length on the hair shaft to guide the edge. If all you have is quite short stubble when shaving ATG, there is no hair shaft to guide the edge into the skin, there's nothing there to catch the edge

If you're not going to shave your beard down to a stubble using well executed passes from multiple directions before shaving ATG, then you better have a very steady hand capable of keeping the razor's edge from digging into your skin


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

Welcome Aboard!

Welcome to B&B !!

You've just started and you're already trying to do against the grain passes. You need to stick with WTG and 1 or two XTG passes. That's it. Do that for a month or two until you're able to consistently achieve comfortable shaves. You can't be worrying about closeness at this point.

Once you reach the point where you're ready for against the grain passes. You can do WTG, XTG, ATG 3 pass shave. Continue to do this then until you're getting comfortable shaves. Now at this point re-evaluate your shaves. Still want closer? THEN go for a more aggressive razor.

If the EJ89 is too irritating, then I would recommend a milder razor, such as a Tech or a Slim at low settings (1-3). This may allow you to go against the grain effectively without affecting skin as much. Make sure that your lather is thick and not too watery. Proraso should be fine. I started with an EJ89, but don't like it anymore - too irritating. The Tech and Slim are great - I can go ATG everytime with complete BBS. A Blue tip Superspeed could also be a good choice, since it's also mild. More aggressive razors or straights work for some people and not for others, and you need to use the tool that provides the best results for your skin and hair type.

djh said:

Take it easy, Grasshopper! Your kit is certainly good enough to give you a great shave, but it is up to you at the moment to develop your skills with practice. For the time being, please put the concern about results on the backburner and concentrate on making one pass WTG and one pass XTG until you become more consistent. As your lather-making develops and you become more comfortable with a DE, your results should improve and at that point, you can add another XTG pass in the opposite direction. Slowly allowing your skills to develop will let you enjoy comfortable shaves whilst working towards your goal, but don't forget that many, many people don't shave ATG because they do not find it worth the potential irritation.
Good luck!

Click to expand...

+1

I have to chime in and support say, if you are just starting out there is no need to get another razor. i do have some suggestions, and they helped me a lot when i started back in January.

1st

stop switching blades. dont change your setup at all for the first month. you need to eliminate as many variables as possible. use the same brand of blade for the next month. the same cream or soap and the same razor. focus on technique.

2nd

stop trying to shave against the grain for now. remember, you WILL NOT shave as smoothly as fast with a DE as with a cartridge razor. don't have that expectation. as Mantic says many times, its about gradual bear reduction, not beard elimination. multiple passes are required, and this will take slightly longer than shaving with a fusion. the end result is a more comfortable shave.

do a WTG pass and then go XTG. and map your beard growth. everyones beard hairs grow differently, and you need to take that into consideration.

shoot for the SAS (socially acceptable shave) for a while. im almost a year in and i still dont get true BBS (baby bottom smooth) shaves. i do routinely get DFS (damn fine shaves) though, and i am happy with that because i get much much less irritation than when i used my fusion or my sensor.

also, stretching the skin may look goofy, but helps a lot.

finally, we have all been there. sure, there are the handful of us that get a perfect shave on their first try, but i was not one of them. most of us have been in your boat. so keep up your confidence. dont give up. share the details and results of your shaves with us. you might find it helpful to start a shave journal. on here or at home. record what you did for prep, order and number of passes, the gear you used, and your results and thoughts on the shave. ask questions when you have them.

A few things that helped me get a better shave was I started face lathering, switched to a Gillette super speed (was using Merkur HD), and started using cold water for the entire shave.

I like Derby razors in my vintage Gillettes for some reason, but not in my modern razors. IMHO, a change of blade might help your situation immensely. Might I recommend the Russian made Voskhod Teflon coated? Astras are another good choice. I have gotten some excellent shaves with these blades. Also 4-5 passes seems excessive, unless you have a REALLY thick, tough beard. I usually only do two passes: WTG and ATG + touch ups where needed. My face used to get reeeeaaalllly irritated when I first started wet shaving and jumped right in with three passes.

Something I found that also helps avoid razor skipping is starting strokes in a "beardless" area, then moving into the bearded area with nice smooth, short strokes. I also overlap my strokes, beginning each stroke in an area which I've already shaved and moving into the unshaven area. I keep my strokes anywhere from 1/4-1/2" in high curved areas like the chin up to 1 or 1 1/2 inches on flatter areas of my face. I try to let the momentum and mass of the razor to do the work rather than forcing it through by pulling or pushing which generally results in putting more pressure on the blade. A no-no for sure.