The "Trying too hard" discussion thread

[Doc4]

I don't understand any fashion at all I read GQ on my kindle all the time and hate it every time(glutton for pain i guess) even though I do owe them for turning me onto wet shaving in an article about the best shave ever.

but the fashion tips they give, I just cant get into what they say is "in" just is not for me but then I am not a fashion icon thats for sure!

GQ ... ... well, they have to fill ten issues a year with "new" and "fresh" stuff to keep their readership subscribed ... so being "right but repetitive" is far more perilous to them than being constantly trumpeting some new hot thing that's all the rage.

Seems to me we are talking about lots of different things here. I think there is something to be said for some intentional nonchalance in dressing. Also, some of the things we are talking about explain why it is okay to sometimes have worn collar points, or dress shoes with tiny cracks in the leather, or ties are not tied quite perfectly and that are somewhat askew. And why you do not have to carefully fold and iron that pocket square and even if you sometimes do, maybe you should not always.

I think it's good for one's clothing to look lived in and well cared for at the same time ... those are not contradictory concepts. A bit of fraying here and there, a bit of patina ... and still an effort to keep it well looked after.

Odd thought on pocket squares: I like to just tv-fold mine (including the coloured silk ones), shove them in the breast pocket, adjust for proper height, and leave them there until the inevitable day when I think that the PS is so atrociously out of step with the rest of the day's ensemble (or with the season, or both) that I HAVE to change it ... so I select a new one and repeat the procedure. Now, I know that the received wisdom about PSs is that you should select the day's PS to be "just right" for the day's outfit (not matchy-matchy, more somewhere in the complimentary--pleasantly-contrasting spectrum) and then artfully arrange it in the breast pocket to look like you just casually shoved it in there.

Thoughts?

On the other hand, I am fascinated by the exquisite grooming and neat, pressed, and careful dress of some of world-class politicians when you see them in person. There is something artificial about it, especially when you first meet them. But I have to admit that there is something about that seems to add to the charisma, overall attractiveness. Maybe it is as if they have dressed up to "talk to me" because I am important, or something like that. There is definitely something subliminal and symbolic going on, methinks. Also, I have no ability to that well-groomed and put together just so, not even for an hour. Much less hour after hour. That impresses me!
Not all great politicians are so. I would say that Churchill was not. Maybe me had a studied nonchalance!

The attire of world-class politicians is certainly not happen-stance or whim. I fully expect that the clothing choices of modern American presidents (and electoral challengers, for that matter) are the product of vast amounts of psycho-analysis and focus group testing to get "just the right image/message." Ditto for other major western nations. Gone are the days when JFK woke up, thought to himself "I wanna dress macho and presidential so I can nail Marilyn again", and grabbed whatever was in his wardrobe.

By the time he reached 1939 and until his death in 1965 ... the period from which we draw most if not all of our recollections of Winnie ... Churchill was no doubt past caring about looking stylish. I suspect he wanted to look the way he wanted to look, and it happened to be stylish. I suspect in his youth he was stylish and over the years developed a good "inner compass" for style ... which served him very well in his brandy-fuelled final decades of not giving a damn.

(Doubtless he gave a damn that he met his own standards ... but as for whether or not his standards accorded with popular fashion ... bah!)

[The Knize]

<Odd thought on pocket squares: I like to just tv-fold mine (including the coloured silk ones), shove them in the breast pocket, adjust for proper height, and leave them there until the inevitable day when I think that the PS is so atrociously out of step with the rest of the day's ensemble (or with the season, or both) that I HAVE to change it ... so I select a new one and repeat the procedure. Now, I know that the received wisdom about PSs is that you should select the day's PS to be "just right" for the day's outfit (not matchy-matchy, more somewhere in the complimentary--pleasantly-contrasting spectrum) and then artfully arrange it in the breast pocket to look like you just casually shoved it in there.

Thoughts?>

Sorry to be late getting back to this!

I had never thought of intentionally leaving pocket squares in the breast pockets of my jackets, but that is not a bad idea. I guess my overall idea was that I do not wear the same tie with the same jacket over and over, at least not intentionally, so maybe I should not wear the same PS.

I seem to be all over the place on folds. Often just casually stuffing in the PS, but from time to time carefully folding it in one way or another or even ironing those folds in place and being very precise. Lately, for some reason I seem to be stuffing the PS in place and allowing only a very small bit to show, either intentionally, or beause the PS works its way down into the pocket.

I am not convinced that the white linen PS is not the best way to go, although I admit I have lots of colored silk PSs and probably use them far more often, and I do seem to have a PS most days these days. At first colored silk pocket squares seemed to me a bit rococo. But now they seem like a nice way to add interest and color to a business suit in a non-obstrusive way. And on me it has come to be that a suit without a pocket square of some sort seems a bit plain to me in the mirror!

I think the rule for colored PSs is to go with generally complementary colors that do not match the pattern of one's tie, so that it does not look like one bought at matched set of tie and PS from the department store. I guess I generally go with some color in a rather fancy patterned PS more or less matching a color in the tie and/or vice versa. But if both are predominately one color, I usually have something close to the same color in each, but not exactly the same. Seems kind of dumb in a way. If one could match exactly, and I am not saying that happens often, why not match exactly. The pattern is not going to be exactly the same for me no matter what.

I kind of like your approach of not overthinking it at all and just going with whatever is in the jacket pocket most of the time.

Kind of nice I suppose, in a more patterned PS to pick up some stray color in the suit or shirt or whatever, too. The Italians seem particularly good at that sort of thing.

[johnniegold]

Reminder: Button all working buttons on suit sleeves.

[The Knize]

Reminder: Button all working buttons on suit sleeves.

Unfortunately I have not had any application for that reminder yet!

I keep meaning to look up Churchill and what he might have thought along satorial matters, but have not managed yet. I wonder if there was a counter reaction in Britian to the Duke of Windsor's focus on clothes around that time?

[sam o'reilly]

I always try to look as though I am aiming for perfection. Inevitably, when my detractors suggest I am trying too hard, I point at the floor and they notice that I have my shoes on the wrong feet. Then it's humble-pie all round. I then saunter off nonchalantly and the looks I get speak volumes.

[Doc4]

I had never thought of intentionally leaving pocket squares in the breast pockets of my jackets, but that is not a bad idea. I guess my overall idea was that I do not wear the same tie with the same jacket over and over, at least not intentionally, so maybe I should not wear the same PS.

I seem to be all over the place on folds. Often just casually stuffing in the PS, but from time to time carefully folding it in one way or another or even ironing those folds in place and being very precise. Lately, for some reason I seem to be stuffing the PS in place and allowing only a very small bit to show, either intentionally, or beause the PS works its way down into the pocket.

I am not convinced that the white linen PS is not the best way to go, although I admit I have lots of colored silk PSs and probably use them far more often, and I do seem to have a PS most days these days. At first colored silk pocket squares seemed to me a bit rococo. But now they seem like a nice way to add interest and color to a business suit in a non-obstrusive way. And on me it has come to be that a suit without a pocket square of some sort seems a bit plain to me in the mirror!

I think the rule for colored PSs is to go with generally complementary colors that do not match the pattern of one's tie, so that it does not look like one bought at matched set of tie and PS from the department store. I guess I generally go with some color in a rather fancy patterned PS more or less matching a color in the tie and/or vice versa. But if both are predominately one color, I usually have something close to the same color in each, but not exactly the same. Seems kind of dumb in a way. If one could match exactly, and I am not saying that happens often, why not match exactly. The pattern is not going to be exactly the same for me no matter what.

One key difference ... you have to take your tie off when undressing each day, while the PS can easily stay in the suit jacket unless you go out of your way to take it out. (Heck, if you only go with a white linen PS, you need never take it out between sending the suit to the drycleaners.)

The main thing to avoid with the 'rule against matching' is ... having it look like your tie and PS were made from the same bolt of cloth. Sometimes, I have no real connection between my tie and PS, apart from them not clashing with each other. It's as if a completely different tie ... which would have gone well with my shirt and suit on its own ... was made into a PS. If that makes any sense.

I agree that a suit without a PS now seems, to me as well, plain and unfinished. For decades I never even considered them, but now can't really stand to be without them. Odd.

I wonder if there was a counter reaction in Britian to the Duke of Windsor's focus on clothes around that time?

Well, you'll find lots of socialist criticism of the wealth and privilege of the upper crust in general ... George Orwell is just the starting point ... but I am not aware off the top of my head about what the opinion of the Duke of Windsor was on that issue.

Of course, once he abdicated he wasn't held in too high regard for the whole abdication thing (ie putting personal pleasure ahead of public duty), which can colour people's regard for him generally.

I always try to look as though I am aiming for perfection. Inevitably, when my detractors suggest I am trying too hard, I point at the floor and they notice that I have my shoes on the wrong feet. Then it's humble-pie all round. I then saunter off nonchalantly and the looks I get speak volumes.

Whatever works for ya!







... your feet must hurt like h&!!

[Slash McCoy]

Isn't this being a little bit over-analytical? I find it much simpler to ACTUALLY be somewhat unconcerned with appearance. Please nobody call this a novel concept!

[Isaac]

"I am what I am" - Popeye

Great quote and words to live by. Clothing doesn't make the man, the man makes the clothing.

[professorchaos]

The first rule of not trying too hard is to be comfortable in what you are wearing. Jeans with a chili stained wife beater will look like you are trying too hard if you aren't comfortable wearing it.

There is a lot to be said for buying quality clothing and allowing it to age gracefully.

Reminder: Button all working buttons on suit sleeves.

You, sir, have excellent taste. How do you feel about hand sewn button holes?

[Slash McCoy]

In the same vein of thinking, this too makes me laugh.

Her butt seems to be missing. I hope whoever has it, returns it soon.

[Slash McCoy]

The first rule of not trying too hard is to be comfortable in what you are wearing. Jeans with a chili stained wife beater will look like you are trying too hard if you aren't comfortable wearing it.

When I am wearing a chili-stained wife-beater, there is usually a dirty chili pot in the sink, or an empty Hormel chili can on the table. Es muy autentico.

[professorchaos]

What you are saying is that you've earned your chili stained wife beater?

[The Knize]

Doc4: <It's as if a completely different tie ... which would have gone well with my shirt and suit on its own>

I think you are really starting to sway me on this. Wore a grey suit today with a mauve silk ps and a white, green, black striped tie. Blue shirt. Looked pretty good. No overlap between the tie and ps at all.

[Mad Man]

Sprezaturra - think Jude Law playing Dicky Greenfield in The Talented Mr Ripley. This look of careless comfort comes from within and meant that he could throw anything together and it worked.

Matt Damon was the complete opposite and when he "assumed" the Dicky character was very try-hard.

[johnniegold]

You, sir, have excellent taste. How do you feel about hand sewn button holes?

Wouldn't leave home without them.

As for leaving a button hole on a jacket sleeve unbuttoned, I do it because I enjoy when people come up to me and say: "hey man, your suit is missing a button."

However, I would agree that if you left your fly undone then you are trying too hard.

[parihart]

There is a lot to be said for buying quality clothing and allowing it to age gracefully.

+1 Sometimes people focus too much on fashion trends, while forgetting to develop their own style.

[sir-nix-alot]

Very good post OP. Made me laugh.

My only issue is that Karl's tie knot kinda sucks. Very sprezzante of him.