JNats for the budget conscious beginner

[SliceOfLife]

Slice: I'm rather new to the knife sharpening world but a convex edge feeling MASSIVELY duller than a v-bevel would to me be more an indication that my convex edge skills were a bit shit and from what I gather if I'm free handing knife sharpening then I'm gonna end up with a convex edge unless I'm the terminator. Perhaps more degree of convex edge is the issue on razors, if you've established a V bevel at a high grit is little bit of convex likely to make a difference at 30k+?

It may well not translate to being noticeable at 30k. I actually said that three or four times above if you read it. And I've had convex honed blades from any number of professional sharpening companies, including a chef who honed all the kitchens knives by hand rather than paying a service... guy had been honing a few dozen knives every week for a decade or more. Skill aside, there's an obvious difference between convex and nonconvexed blades in cutting power that can't be written off as poor honing. Convexing on a single stage bevel isn't really an issue. That would be a sign of bad honing (rolling the spine up inadvertently during the arc is amateur and would more likely dull the blade than "accidentally" convex the edge)


Paco... an edge that is sharp isn't harsh and unpleasant to shave with (unless it has nicks in it or something). 8k isn't sharp enough for a pleasant shave for me either... no matter how many experts say it is. Sure it's USABLE... Hell I had a Carbo Razor hone that I guarantee you wasn't a point over 4k Mesh. People shaved off that crap... some people.

I actually think one of these days all those guys who swore that 8k shaves were perfectly fine are gonna do a big unified "Haha We TROLED U!" post and laugh at the people they got to shave with that godawful edge.


The last stone to touch the edge is all that matters if you hone enough on the last stone that you actually go below/beyond any point on the metal the previous stone touched. That's entirely possible, but I doubt most people do it (from the lap counts I see mentioned by most honers).

However the point Paco MAY have been making is that once I progress to my third stone from my second, my first stone no longer matters. And outside of some crazy 4 dimensional abstract edge artwork... that is true, unless I messed up my honing. If I do a three stone system and there's ANY immediate evidence (Pretty much anything other than bevel shape) of my first stone (1200grit DMT in my case) cuts on the edge... then sister... I done f'ed up!

Honing on a flexible surface may differ here, but I'll leave it to Seraphim to confirm or deny. Since (in case anyone didn't realize it) the whole idea of convexing from strop-honing is that you are removing the front of the edge and creating a bevel that is slightly shorter and steepens in an arc. This will for obvious reasons, erase the signs of previous hones much faster than traditional honing methods on the same abrasive would (which is a BIG part of why pasted strops are such fast/easy alternatives to let you jump from say a 8k Norton to leather rather than sticking a finer hone in there. Fast enough to completely erase them in a few passes? That's the question.

In my experience, my Jnat (even back in the day when I was new with 220grit DMT slurry instead of a tomo... and god knows how far off of my stones max I was) had every whisper of edge completely obliterated by balsa chromox between 10 and 15 passes (was I believe 8x3" balsa) with no pressure.

[riooso]

Boy I go on vacation for a couple of days and this thread takes off!

I have never seen an edge that has been honed on a J-Nat, or any other stone synthetic or natural, that was not improved by CBN...not one!

As a neophyte I realize that not having honed more than a hundred razors does not qualify me as a "Master" but I have talked to some people that have honed many hundreds, and some thoushands, of razors and have always heard the same thing, "I have never seen an edge not improve using a paste of the proper grit. Is it always necessary to do this? The answer is probably no for most of the people that hone their own razors. Is it necessary for me?...yes it is crutial. I have some really stiff beard hairs that are attached to nerves that will send me into orbit unless the edge is of optimum keenness. Everyone comes to this thing with different desires and needs.

The original post was a question of getting a J-Nat with Nagura. I use Boton,Tenjou, and Mejiro (listed from course to finer). There is another that one could use and that is called Koma but they are getting very hard to find and aquire. The point I was trying to make is that if one were to get a finishing stone, (with no inclusions), along with Nagura, and a high quality paste that one could hone a razor that would meet expectations that would be very high indeed. There is a learning curve but if one is used to using his hands it is not all that difficult and if you can get someone to sit in front of you and show you it is amazing how easy it is. You tube is another way to go but in person trumps all.

I have a very nice $1500 Maruichi "Maruka" (Nakayama Asagi) and it is an unbelievable stone. What is the difference between what I get off the Nakayma Asagi and the Ohira Asagi? I don't know anymore because I use CBN after almost all honing sessions and all is good.....for me! CBN is one part of the process that tends to be the leveler of ability and stones, just what a new guy needs.

If you shop around and do your research you can get the setup for about $300 USD including a bevel setting stone or plate.

Take Care,
Richard

[Gamma]

I don't believe that any paste would improve the edge I shaved with tonight.

[Woodash]

Define 'improved'....
Seriously, I have and occasionally use CBN, but I still prefer shaving off the stone. Just what works for me...

[Kentos]

I like CBN and it improves MY edges. For someone with more experience and skill I can see how it could have minimal effect.

[Gamma]

Exactly...

Define 'improved'....
Seriously, I have and occasionally use CBN, but I still prefer shaving off the stone. Just what works for me...

[Seraphim]

If someone were to smash up a nice Jnat into powder and bond it to a sheet of polymer on mylar, I'd give it a try.




I'd still probably follow up with a pasted strop though.....

[riooso]

if someone were to smash up a nice jnat into powder and bond it to a sheet of polymer on mylar, i'd give it a try.




I'd still probably follow up with a pasted strop though.....

LOL, now THAT is pragmatically funny!

R

[linguist]

apologize me but what is CBN?

[Doc226]

apologize me but what is CBN?

http://chefknivestogo.ecomm-search.c...ry=cbn&x=0&y=0

[riooso]

Carbon Boron Nitride is the name of the substance so that you can Google it.



This vendor show the grit sizes.

http://www.jendeindustries.com/mm5/m...Category_Code=

Take Care,
Richard

[mainaman]

If you guys want to try such fine grits check out this link:
http://store.advancedabrasives.com/

prices are cheaper

[riooso]

Thanks for the site. Just have time for a quick look at the moment but I will have dig into it to find if they carry CBN type of abrasives.

Thanks,
Richrd