JNats for the budget conscious beginner

**QuarkVI** · 07-30-2012, 11:43 PM

Well inspired by the recent power Activation and beautiful pics of Jnats it is about time I ask the question my budget has been fearing ...

What is the best/easiest way to get into JNats for the budget conscious beginner ?

We always recommend BST or whipped dog for someone looking to try a straight, we point them to Jarrod to find a nice coti that will do the job. But what is the collective recommendation for getting into JNats?

Let's also assume we are not concerned with bevel setting.

My understanding, from reading all over the place, is that most of the mojo is in the nagura. The actual "hone" used for razors is usually very hard and fine. You basically hone on slurry and the nagura used determine the "grit" of the slurry (in addition the slurry breaks down to become finer than it started). In addition the names of the "hone" stones don't really matter for razors - you just want something fine enough without any major cracks or inclusions.

So where do I get an affordable, relative term, "hone" - most seem to be waaaaay bigger than I would need for a razor and what should one budget ? (I am thinking 150 * 40 would be luxury enough - compared to a coti)

What nagura should I get first and how much should I budget ? What nagura constitute a full set i.e. able to go from start to finish ?

(budget questions assume reasonable choices that would last till the AD's kick in e.g. 150*30 coti would do razors for a lifetime without hassles but no one stops there)

Many thanks for everyone's input - realize this is a rabbit hole but would be nice to establish a reasonable baseline for those of us considering trying JNats.

cheers
____________________
Robin

**paco664** · 07-30-2012, 11:57 PM

i got lucky on ebay with a seller called 330mate........ got one for 90$ shipped...

bought another tonight from him for 100$........ *(remains to be seen if my luck holds...)

**Puerco** · 07-31-2012, 12:41 AM

I bought a shoubudani type 100 from JNS, and I couldn't be happier with it. The type 100 is just the size, I think it's 160x55mm and it only cost me 75 euros.
It's a great way to start with JNATs because the stone is of good quality and a very reliable seller. You'd need at least a tomonagura (small piece of the same kind of stone) with it but it's better to have some asano naguras with it (those are those chalk like rubbing stones in various grits).
With just a tomonagura it's a great finisher after for instance a coticule but with a full asano nagura set you can use it all the way from bevel set to shaveready and incredibly sharp.
Asano naguras include (course to fine) Botan, Teniyou, Mejiro and if you can find one a Koma.
I really love mine, it's the perfect size for hand honing for me but I do think a full size stone will come my way eventually but for now I couldn't be happier.
I can really recommend JNS, very reliable. With 330mate you need some luck.

**Legion** · 07-31-2012, 01:03 AM

I know it is sacrilege to try and assign grit ratings to natural stones, but if you had to, what do you guys think the grit of your main hone would be, just using water?

And here is a crazy idea. Have any of you played with your nagura's on a Cnat?

Just trying to help the budget concious.

**QuarkVI** · 07-31-2012, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by legion

I know it is sacrilege to try and assign grit ratings to natural stones, but if you had to, what do you guys think the grit of your main hone would be, just using water?

And here is a crazy idea. Have any of you played with your nagura's on a Cnat?

Or to take it even further - could you use a set of naguras on granite ? or do you finish on water on the hone as opposed to finish with a slurry ? This is more a theoretical questions as at this point mojo points are way down - and we all know the correct mojo-less solution is pico or paco paper.

**Doc226** · 07-31-2012, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by legion

I know it is sacrilege to try and assign grit ratings to natural stones, but if you had to, what do you guys think the grit of your main hone would be, just using water?

And here is a crazy idea. Have any of you played with your nagura's on a Cnat?

Just trying to help the budget concious.

My stone I would guess is in the 15-20K

**Puerco** · 07-31-2012, 02:46 AM

A CNAT or C12K is a great stone for the price but a JNAT is much harder and finer. I wouldn't dare putting a grit rating on it especially since the grit breaks down during the honing.
I tried using asano naguras on a Cnat since I have a big Cnat but didn't think it worked too well. First the Cnat with it's own slurry is fast enough and second thing is you hit the limitation of the Cnat. A Japanese tomonagura is harder then a Cnat so rubbing those would only (or mainly) release Cnat slurry.
I did find that coticule slurry on a Cnat works very good and fast, diluting as you go and/or followed by it's own slurry but overall I think the best way is to use these stones as they been used for hundreds of years.
Just my opinion/experience off course.

**Legion** · 07-31-2012, 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by Doc226

My stone I would guess is in the 15-20K

Fair enough. What would you say to the above proposal of honing on granite with nagura? Or marble, or glass?

I put this out there to get people thinking, not to get banned.

**Legion** · 07-31-2012, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Puerco

A CNAT or C12K is a great stone for the price but a JNAT is much harder and finer. I wouldn't dare putting a grit rating on it especially since the grit breaks down during the honing.
I tried using asano naguras on a Cnat since I have a big Cnat but didn't think it worked too well. First the Cnat with it's own slurry is fast enough and second thing is you hit the limitation of the Cnat. A Japanese tomonagura is harder then a Cnat so rubbing those would only (or mainly) release Cnat slurry.
I did find that coticule slurry on a Cnat works very good and fast, diluting as you go and/or followed by it's own slurry but overall I think the best way is to use these stones as they been used for hundreds of years.
Just my opinion/experience off course.

Interesting. I too have tried coticule slurry on a Cnat. I should get back to that. I think I moved on before any conclusive data could be obtained. But it looked promising.

**Doc226** · 07-31-2012, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by legion

Fair enough. What would you say to the above proposal of honing on granite with nagura? Or marble, or glass?

I put this out there to get people thinking, not to get banned.

I have not tried it, the only problem would be actually raising the slurry. I might try it raising some slurry on a DMT and then transferring to glass. I will try it, I need to buy a piece of glass and glue it to wood.

I will report back.

**mainaman** · 07-31-2012, 04:02 AM

First and most important is to get a stone from reputable vendor. IME after using all kinds of stones from all kinds of vendors and e-bay JNS is best source.
Now your idea about nagura and base stone is in general correct but there is more to Jnats than that,but knowledge comes with experience. Just talk to Maksim about a small starter Jnat and I am sure he will find you something suitable.

**BakerAndBadger** · 07-31-2012, 04:09 AM

What hardness level are you looking for when getting into Jnats?
I know that eBay is hit or miss and YMMV etc etc but 330mate has quite a few happy customers here and I'm toying with the idea of dropping a best offer on a stone in the nearish future so which one?

The harder ones, from what I've read, are more difficult to master but can they be used as a finisher rather than using the full set of naguras? OR should a beginner go for a softer stone? H5+++ or H3? What difference would it make to the final edge? Are harder stones higher grit equivalent or is there something else to it?

**mainaman** · 07-31-2012, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by BakerAndBadger

What hardness level are you looking for when getting into Jnats?
I know that eBay is hit or miss and YMMV etc etc but 330mate has quite a few happy customers here and I'm toying with the idea of dropping a best offer on a stone in the nearish future so which one?

The harder ones, from what I've read, are more difficult to master but can they be used as a finisher rather than using the full set of naguras? OR should a beginner go for a softer stone? H5+++ or H3? What difference would it make to the final edge? Are harder stones higher grit equivalent or is there something else to it?

You get what you are paying for, 330mate hardness ratings are definitely a few notches off what i have seen from other vendors.

**BakerAndBadger** · 07-31-2012, 04:44 AM

OK, no problems. I've just happened across an article about using BBW's for honing and I may pursue that avenue this summer instead - I already plan to go to Vielsalm to check out the mine so might have to spend a few Euros at the same time!

**jeness** · 07-31-2012, 06:24 AM

The actual "mojo" isn't in the naguras, its in the hone itself. The naguras are there only to make a mainly finishing hone an all-around one. The most important thing is the finish, where these stones shine, and no nagura will help you if you don't have a nice stone, because finishing comes after the naguras. If you want it cheap, get a 75 euro stone from JNS, you will like it a lot. If you want to be cost efficient, don't buy anything razor related from 330mate.

**dakotaev** · 07-31-2012, 08:18 PM

I can also recommend the type 100 stones from JNS, they aren't always available but if you get one, they're a very nice size and usually around $100.

I bought mine second hand from another member here but it was originally from JNS. I'm in the process of selling off all my other finishers because I just can't match it.

Oh and mojo and all that... ;)

**Kentos** · 07-31-2012, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by dakotaev

I can also recommend the type 100 stones from JNS, they aren't always available but if you get one, they're a very nice size and usually around $100.

I bought mine second hand from another member here but it was originally from JNS. I'm in the process of selling off all my other finishers because I just can't match it.

Oh and mojo and all that... ;)

Evan, what is your finishing technique off the Jnat? My Jnat on water technique is lacking to the point stopping at the tomo slurry stage gives me as good an edge as going to water.

**hotdog** · 07-31-2012, 08:43 PM

try this site for JNATS. I have purchased several from him and always have gotten good service and advice from him..
http://yhst-27988581933240.stores.ya...whetstone.html

http://www.aframestokyo.com/

**Krodor** · 07-31-2012, 09:22 PM

dumb question: translucent / surgical black arkansas are severely friggin' hard and are much cheaper than same-sized JNATs. Is there any issue with getting real JNAT-compatible nagura and going to town using the arkie? I can't imagine getting a tomo-arkana (copyright!?) for that black hunk of lapping-pain I have downstairs...If I didn't know that JNATs were on the order of that hard, I'd say getting a decent slurry from a rock like that is ridiculous. Anyone tried it?

**kirk 988** · 07-31-2012, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Krodor

dumb question: translucent / surgical black arkansas are severely friggin' hard and are much cheaper than same-sized JNATs. Is there any issue with getting real JNAT-compatible nagura and going to town using the arkie? I can't imagine getting a tomo-arkana (copyright!?) for that black hunk of lapping-pain I have downstairs...If I didn't know that JNATs were on the order of that hard, I'd say getting a decent slurry from a rock like that is ridiculous. Anyone tried it?

@krodor what a great idea ive tryed a friend of the familys translucent ark on a high carbon home made knife blade that i made from a racing saw and it was to slow to be much good.

how much are nagura's?