I think we dress more "casual" these day, I don't think slob is the word for it, although there are slobs out there. I dress very casual 90% of the time and proud of it, I am not dirty by any means. I shower and shave daily and keep a very close buzz cut hairstyle, but unless it's a very special occasion I wear t-shirts and cargo shorts in the summer and various button up or pull over shirts and jeans in the winter, but either way I always have shirt tucked in and wear a nice belt. I am very hot natured and sweat like a pig in the Amazon, so anything that is not comfortable for me is pure hell to wear and I'll have it soaked through within 30-60 minutes. Honestly, I think anyone around me would rather see me in "slobbish" t-shirt/shorts than all dressed up and red faced and sweating buckets.
Do people dress like slobs today? Or were people 100 years ago just plain and drab?
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Yes. No.
I don't think the line is as clear as formal = sharp and casual = slob; I think whether you are dressing formally or casually you can still be sharp and well put together. This is where I see the division. I dress casually almost all of the time, but even then I feel I look sharper than most people I pass in a day whether they are dressed formally or casually. For me it's got absolutely nothing to do with "vanity". It's about showing that I respect myself, that I believe if you are going to do something - anything - then take some bloody pride in it.
I don't know when or how apathy became cool, but I believe it is affecting much more of our society than might be expected. I take pride in how I present myself not because I am vain but to show I actually give a **** about something. When I feel sharp, I treat people better, and more often than not they reciprocate. It's about raising the societal bar, and it starts with individuals. Individuals taking a series of small, correct steps that over time accumulate into something that can create a groundswell of change.
You may think you're just shaving because you like it, but maybe you're changing the world.
Gf
I don't know when or how apathy became cool, but I believe it is affecting much more of our society than might be expected. I take pride in how I present myself not because I am vain but to show I actually give a **** about something. When I feel sharp, I treat people better, and more often than not they reciprocate. It's about raising the societal bar, and it starts with individuals. Individuals taking a series of small, correct steps that over time accumulate into something that can create a groundswell of change.
You may think you're just shaving because you like it, but maybe you're changing the world.
Gf
Here's James Dean in casual dress ... No Way to me does he look like a Slob ... So
I've seen a number of good points and other observations I can agree with.
The "standard" is lower in my experience. I don't even wear suits to the office (just shirt/tie/trousers), but other folks in the office act like I am so proper in my appearance. If I came in tomorrow with a polo shirt and khakis on, someone would probably ask what was going on. I take a weekly dance lesson with my wife. If I show up in anything less than my work outfit, the owner of the place asks what is going on. He is well dressed, so maybe he is just happy someone else shows up in a tie, I don't know.
I agree that part of it is the "casualization" of our society, but I also attribute it to the idea that cheaper is better and that everything is disposable. Many of us here have Allen Edmonds shoes. I'd bet if you told most of the male co-workers in your office that you spent $300 on your shoes, they would think you are insane. "I got mine for $40 and they are just fine". Well they also treat those shoes like $40 shoes, so after 3 months they look like crap. In another 6, they buy another pair of $40 shoes after they fall apart. Same with shirts, pants, suits, etc. Folks that do spend money on clothes/shoes are often more concerned with brand names than quality.
With that said, "casual" can still be well put together. It just needs to be done right and in the right setting. If I go to Home Depot, I am not wearing a suit, but you also won't find me in a tank top and cut off jean shorts either. My t-shirts fit and are very basic. My typical summer casual outfit is khaki shorts and a polo. I hardly feel like a slob in it.
I also agree that dry cleaning and alterations doesn't make it any more accessible. Part of the reason I got my suits at Brooks Brothers is that I figured they at a decent tailor in the store. If not, I was not looking forward to trying to draw a good tailor from the yellow pages. Dry cleaners can be just plain expensive. Luckily I've found a local shop that is cheap and they haven't ruined anything yet. For most guys though, they don't want to spent money at the dry cleaner and they don't want to spend money or have no idea where to find a good tailor. So they buy some machine washable pair of pants off the rack and if they fit OK, that is good enough.
All of this adds up to the fact that I'll walk into an elevator at the office and notice the other men in there look like they hate themselves. Dirty shoes, poor fitting, low quality clothes.
Personally I like feeling "put together" where ever I go. I like "old school" quality in clothing because I feel like it connects me to my grandfather's generation and I like spending money on quality. Some guys say "I could buy 5 pairs of shoes for what you paid for 1". Well I'd rather buy one good pair, especially if it means supporting an American made product. My Dad has even mentioned how my grandfather would appreciate my stuff when I was telling him about a new pair of shoes. I recently found out my great grandfather was a cobbler, so I guess even more reason to get some nice shoes that can be refurbished.
The "standard" is lower in my experience. I don't even wear suits to the office (just shirt/tie/trousers), but other folks in the office act like I am so proper in my appearance. If I came in tomorrow with a polo shirt and khakis on, someone would probably ask what was going on. I take a weekly dance lesson with my wife. If I show up in anything less than my work outfit, the owner of the place asks what is going on. He is well dressed, so maybe he is just happy someone else shows up in a tie, I don't know.
I agree that part of it is the "casualization" of our society, but I also attribute it to the idea that cheaper is better and that everything is disposable. Many of us here have Allen Edmonds shoes. I'd bet if you told most of the male co-workers in your office that you spent $300 on your shoes, they would think you are insane. "I got mine for $40 and they are just fine". Well they also treat those shoes like $40 shoes, so after 3 months they look like crap. In another 6, they buy another pair of $40 shoes after they fall apart. Same with shirts, pants, suits, etc. Folks that do spend money on clothes/shoes are often more concerned with brand names than quality.
With that said, "casual" can still be well put together. It just needs to be done right and in the right setting. If I go to Home Depot, I am not wearing a suit, but you also won't find me in a tank top and cut off jean shorts either. My t-shirts fit and are very basic. My typical summer casual outfit is khaki shorts and a polo. I hardly feel like a slob in it.
I also agree that dry cleaning and alterations doesn't make it any more accessible. Part of the reason I got my suits at Brooks Brothers is that I figured they at a decent tailor in the store. If not, I was not looking forward to trying to draw a good tailor from the yellow pages. Dry cleaners can be just plain expensive. Luckily I've found a local shop that is cheap and they haven't ruined anything yet. For most guys though, they don't want to spent money at the dry cleaner and they don't want to spend money or have no idea where to find a good tailor. So they buy some machine washable pair of pants off the rack and if they fit OK, that is good enough.
All of this adds up to the fact that I'll walk into an elevator at the office and notice the other men in there look like they hate themselves. Dirty shoes, poor fitting, low quality clothes.
Personally I like feeling "put together" where ever I go. I like "old school" quality in clothing because I feel like it connects me to my grandfather's generation and I like spending money on quality. Some guys say "I could buy 5 pairs of shoes for what you paid for 1". Well I'd rather buy one good pair, especially if it means supporting an American made product. My Dad has even mentioned how my grandfather would appreciate my stuff when I was telling him about a new pair of shoes. I recently found out my great grandfather was a cobbler, so I guess even more reason to get some nice shoes that can be refurbished.
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I agree with what you all have said! Is there a book on style or a book to help a guy like myself build a wore drobe?
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- #27
These cultural phenomena are interesting. I wonder how much of it is one generation rebelling against the next, with each one racketing up the casualness in their dress so that they are not conforming with their parents/grandparents generation. Then I also wonder how much of it has to do with the equal rights movements. Whether its women breaking through the glass ceiling or improved/normalized racial relations, resulting in situation where workers are judged much more on their output/performance just so long as they maintain some minimum appearance standard, so it is no longer necessary to dress like your boss or VP to get a promotion. Mix in mass produced, less well fitting clothes and the trend is bound to become more causal??
I remember speaking with someone who worked at IBM in the 90's when the dress code was loosening, but where it was still a white shirt & blue pants/suit kind of place. They said the formal dress code evolved many years before (even before IBM started) as a way to separate the business professional from the farmer or blue collar worker. The white shirt signified cleanliness and that one had not just harvested some produce or milked the cow on the way into the office. Those times are no longer with us.
I remember speaking with someone who worked at IBM in the 90's when the dress code was loosening, but where it was still a white shirt & blue pants/suit kind of place. They said the formal dress code evolved many years before (even before IBM started) as a way to separate the business professional from the farmer or blue collar worker. The white shirt signified cleanliness and that one had not just harvested some produce or milked the cow on the way into the office. Those times are no longer with us.
Some years ago I worked at EDS which was Ross Perot's company. We had two choices in shirts, either white or blue and most suits were always some shade of dark. Blazers were not even a consideration. Ties you could take your pick. When I joined they had just amended the dress code to allow men to have a mustache. We are talking very conservative dress. Perot got his start at IBM and in the computer services end of matters EDS would beat IBM like a drum. EDS was better and charged for it so you better look the part was the unspoken culture. You may have taken off your coat at your cubicle but at the cafeteria all men and women wore their suit coats. Always.
So imagine the shock and silence when my manager who liked to rankle folks hired a brash and likable guy who wore his lime green leisure suit often. Oh. My. You have no idea. Nothing was ever said, it never was. But the unspoken was deafening. Nobody was excluded, in fact we were all part of a close knit group and got along famously. After a time, perhaps six months or so the new fellow phased out his favorite suit and was able to afford some clothes more in keeping with the culture.
Now I wear cargo shorts and polo shirts during the day which I am told don't really "work" visually but they are fine by me.
So imagine the shock and silence when my manager who liked to rankle folks hired a brash and likable guy who wore his lime green leisure suit often. Oh. My. You have no idea. Nothing was ever said, it never was. But the unspoken was deafening. Nobody was excluded, in fact we were all part of a close knit group and got along famously. After a time, perhaps six months or so the new fellow phased out his favorite suit and was able to afford some clothes more in keeping with the culture.
Now I wear cargo shorts and polo shirts during the day which I am told don't really "work" visually but they are fine by me.
I wonder how much of the casualness has come not from rebellion but the breakthroughs in performance wear for athletics. Polo or Tennis shirts? Sweat Pants/shirts? T-shirts? As these kinds of items became mass produced, I suspect people started wearing them for casual dress for comfort.
I stand by the comfort argument.
I am easily 2 times as productive if I am comfortable. I wear polo shirts and cargo shorts to work from mid spring to mid autom, and then move to dockers when it gets chilly. If I dressed in a suit all day, I'd get less than half as much done while fidgeting and whining.
I stand by the comfort argument.
I am easily 2 times as productive if I am comfortable. I wear polo shirts and cargo shorts to work from mid spring to mid autom, and then move to dockers when it gets chilly. If I dressed in a suit all day, I'd get less than half as much done while fidgeting and whining.
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society" - Mark Twain.
Poorly dressed people fall somewhere in between. - my thoughts.
Poorly dressed people fall somewhere in between. - my thoughts.
Brother, i don't know if you have discovered The Art of Manliness yet but check out there website. It has some pretty good tips for all things manly including tips on how to dress.
http://artofmanliness.com/
Also they have a book which i recommend. It also comes in the e-reader version.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1600614620
Talltexan, I know others swear by Flusser's book Dressing the Man. There are also some fora for such discussions (Ask Andy, Style Forum, and the pleasant chaps here in the Haberdashery at Badger and Blade). Mostly, I have learned from reading the eloquent posts here and elsewhere.
rob_NH: I think you do make some valid points there and it is about comfort. However, it is as much about comfort for me in my suit and tie or sports jacket and tie or sports jacket and button down collar as it is for you in polo shirts and cargo shorts. Nothing is more unsettling than seeing some poor chap who clearly hates his 'dressing up' and, equally, I'm sure some would see me squirming in shorts and t-shirt in public (which I must wear at the gym but nowhere else because I find such attire distinctly uncomfortable but I also hate wearing jeans and own none). They're not for me but I do not think they're inherently 'slobwear'. Some of you gentlemen can pull them off quite well but it's not my cup of tea. My casual clothes are a sports jacket, button-down collar shirt (no tie), and chinos or wool trousers with braces. If I'm mowing the lawn or doing DIY then I go without the sports jacket and then go to belted chinos.
I think part of it is also how people see us or, perhaps, how they see us reflected in our clothes. I often find myself in the situation which Matt S describes, people wonder if something has gone wrong if I am dressed in some way unlike my usual fashion. I once joked with a colleague that I could probably just wear a short sleeve shirt and khakis and he looked at me and said 'No, I don't see it. It's not you and people would notice.' Not that there is a strict dress code where I work but he and other colleagues felt that it would look 'wrong' were I to not come in like I normally do. I think it is because I am comfortable wearing (to modern eyes) formal clothing which 'must be uncomfortable' (going back to rob_NH's point). It's not uncomfortable for me and I rather fancy that this is true rather than that I am vain. That said, I do often hear from people in Seattle or my hometown in Idaho 'How can you dress like that? Aren't you uncomfortable?'.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Happily, the majority of the comments I receive are complimentary ones from women 'I wish more men dressed like you' or elderly gentlemen so maybe they think I look comfortable after all.
rob_NH: I think you do make some valid points there and it is about comfort. However, it is as much about comfort for me in my suit and tie or sports jacket and tie or sports jacket and button down collar as it is for you in polo shirts and cargo shorts. Nothing is more unsettling than seeing some poor chap who clearly hates his 'dressing up' and, equally, I'm sure some would see me squirming in shorts and t-shirt in public (which I must wear at the gym but nowhere else because I find such attire distinctly uncomfortable but I also hate wearing jeans and own none). They're not for me but I do not think they're inherently 'slobwear'. Some of you gentlemen can pull them off quite well but it's not my cup of tea. My casual clothes are a sports jacket, button-down collar shirt (no tie), and chinos or wool trousers with braces. If I'm mowing the lawn or doing DIY then I go without the sports jacket and then go to belted chinos.
I think part of it is also how people see us or, perhaps, how they see us reflected in our clothes. I often find myself in the situation which Matt S describes, people wonder if something has gone wrong if I am dressed in some way unlike my usual fashion. I once joked with a colleague that I could probably just wear a short sleeve shirt and khakis and he looked at me and said 'No, I don't see it. It's not you and people would notice.' Not that there is a strict dress code where I work but he and other colleagues felt that it would look 'wrong' were I to not come in like I normally do. I think it is because I am comfortable wearing (to modern eyes) formal clothing which 'must be uncomfortable' (going back to rob_NH's point). It's not uncomfortable for me and I rather fancy that this is true rather than that I am vain. That said, I do often hear from people in Seattle or my hometown in Idaho 'How can you dress like that? Aren't you uncomfortable?'.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Happily, the majority of the comments I receive are complimentary ones from women 'I wish more men dressed like you' or elderly gentlemen so maybe they think I look comfortable after all.
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Every day I am amazed at how poorly Singaporeans dress. Flip flops, baggy shorts and childish-designed T shirts are the standard dress for men and women of all ages here. I throw those sort of things on if I am just sitting around at home or going to the pool (except it's usually a Rush or England Rugby T shirt!), but I wouldn't dream of leaving the condo premises like it. The locals wear absolute tat and then go to the malls on Orchard Road, poking around in the Chanel shop in ION. Astonishing. On Fridays, "dress down" day in the office they come to work in stuff I would have thrown away years ago.
I know it's hot and humid here and few people wear a suit for the office any more, but everywhere has AC on super cold, so why can't they at least dress properly?
I know it's hot and humid here and few people wear a suit for the office any more, but everywhere has AC on super cold, so why can't they at least dress properly?
Whose or what standard is being applied to say that they aren't "properly" dressed?
I understand this sentiment, but it's also a product of habit. Were you to wear a suit for a week or two, you would grow accustomed to it.
When Sean Connery took over as 007, Ian Fleming asked him to wear a tuxedo every day for 2-3 weeks, even when he slept. He wanted Connery to feel as if it was his own skin he was wearing, not a tuxedo.
Clothing is always based on the preferences of the times and the places. The guys in your picture look different than the dress you would have found on recent immigrants in the 1850s or on homesteaders in New England in the late 1700s. None of them would have had any togas or kimono in their rooms either. It's all relative. As dapper as those guys might look, I suspect that if you sat down next to them, you would have definitely wrinkled your nose. Notions of hygiene change a lot too.
I think that there is something different about modern life, and it isn't just cultural change or a shift in taste. Certainly there seems to be a general trend in the US for increased casual dress. People sometimes say that it started with the demobilization of the WWII generation who didn't want to be confined to uniforms anymore. JFK's famous dislike of hats gets chalked up to that. Hard to say. However, I think that the biggest change in my lifetime comes from globalization. There has been an enormous and dramatic shift to simple clothing that can be cheaply mass produced throughout the developing (or not developing) world and shipped to the stores of the high consuming nations. It is now possible for American consumers to buy more and more inexpensive clothing--products that are cheap to make, cheap to produce, and not designed to last. That doesn't happen in a vacuum as the US retail industry is organized around that very thing. Old Navy, the Gap and all those places need to keep selling cheap shirts and pants to people, and bring them back in to buy more.
I wonder if working people aren't spending about the same proportional amount of money to buy a lot of cheap, poorly made clothing rather than the few items that were more durable that were available to their parents and grandparents? Or, more likely, they're spending more and more to get less and less. I don't think that a lot of it has to do with preference (as much as consumers might like to believe that they have choices), just what is made available to them. In other words, I think it's an economic question driven by production rather than an issue of consumer preference and increasing casual attitudes.
I think that there is something different about modern life, and it isn't just cultural change or a shift in taste. Certainly there seems to be a general trend in the US for increased casual dress. People sometimes say that it started with the demobilization of the WWII generation who didn't want to be confined to uniforms anymore. JFK's famous dislike of hats gets chalked up to that. Hard to say. However, I think that the biggest change in my lifetime comes from globalization. There has been an enormous and dramatic shift to simple clothing that can be cheaply mass produced throughout the developing (or not developing) world and shipped to the stores of the high consuming nations. It is now possible for American consumers to buy more and more inexpensive clothing--products that are cheap to make, cheap to produce, and not designed to last. That doesn't happen in a vacuum as the US retail industry is organized around that very thing. Old Navy, the Gap and all those places need to keep selling cheap shirts and pants to people, and bring them back in to buy more.
I wonder if working people aren't spending about the same proportional amount of money to buy a lot of cheap, poorly made clothing rather than the few items that were more durable that were available to their parents and grandparents? Or, more likely, they're spending more and more to get less and less. I don't think that a lot of it has to do with preference (as much as consumers might like to believe that they have choices), just what is made available to them. In other words, I think it's an economic question driven by production rather than an issue of consumer preference and increasing casual attitudes.
Back 'in the day' there was a lot more social pressure to 'dress appropriately'. Everyone basically bought into the notion of how one was supposed to dress, and they did it. Yes, a poor man's (only) suit would be of poor quality (although he'd put a premium on durability) and probably rather ill-fitting, but it'd be a suit.
In the "old days" average people (that is, the non-wealthy) spent a lot more of their total income on a lot fewer items of clothing. In part, they had no choice as the world was not yet flooded with incredibly cheap stuff made overseas and sold at Walmart, and in part it was a different mentality ... people looked for durability in their clothing, and there was an acceptance of wearing the same clothing very frequently that we do not have today ... the sarcastic "didn't you wear that yesterday?" is a new phenomenon.
I remember going on a vacation to Vegas with a couple buddies back in 2005 or so ... and being struck by the omnipresent slobbishness of the people I saw there. This was on the strip, and no doubt 95% of the people I saw were on vacation like me ... so I'm not expecting suit & tie (although that'd be cool ... we can all get dressed up and live out our "cool Rat Pack Vegas" dreams in lounge suits, fedoras, and givin' a damn ... ) but "nice casual" are no longer words that go together apparently.
Too true.
But I think it now goes deeper than that. Hard-core individualism has taken over as a quasi-religion in much of modern society (at least western society ... I cannot speak for the rest of the world ...) to such an extent that otherwise-right-thinking people get highly upset if you start talking about how there are or ought to be standards for dress ... "how dare you (or anyone) tell me how I ought to dress" ... as if they've just had their moral fibre called into question. Start a thread here about how it'd be nice if everyone took their hats off when they sit down at a restaurant "just like in the good old days" and the arguments lead to thread-lock.
Oh dear.
One more thing there ... nowadays, we are conditioned to not want to wear the same stuff over and over again. And it's not just about keeping up with fashion (although that doesn't help
), we just get bombarded with so much advertising and urgings to buy that we're just not satisfied with owning a few things ... we have to have a lot of things. (How many of you own ONE razor, ONE brush, ONE shave soap, and ONE aftershave ... the way all our grandfathers did?)
And then, we have the post-war phenomenon of having some third-world country/ies out there ready, willing and able to make mountains of cheap crap to satiate our current desire to own a bunch of new stuff. Depending on how old you are, you will remember back when "Made in Japan", "Made in Hong Kong", and "Made in Taiwan" all had the same "this is cheap crap" connotation that "Made in China" now does.
In the "old days" average people (that is, the non-wealthy) spent a lot more of their total income on a lot fewer items of clothing. In part, they had no choice as the world was not yet flooded with incredibly cheap stuff made overseas and sold at Walmart, and in part it was a different mentality ... people looked for durability in their clothing, and there was an acceptance of wearing the same clothing very frequently that we do not have today ... the sarcastic "didn't you wear that yesterday?" is a new phenomenon.
I remember going on a vacation to Vegas with a couple buddies back in 2005 or so ... and being struck by the omnipresent slobbishness of the people I saw there. This was on the strip, and no doubt 95% of the people I saw were on vacation like me ... so I'm not expecting suit & tie (although that'd be cool ... we can all get dressed up and live out our "cool Rat Pack Vegas" dreams in lounge suits, fedoras, and givin' a damn ... ) but "nice casual" are no longer words that go together apparently.
Too true.
But I think it now goes deeper than that. Hard-core individualism has taken over as a quasi-religion in much of modern society (at least western society ... I cannot speak for the rest of the world ...) to such an extent that otherwise-right-thinking people get highly upset if you start talking about how there are or ought to be standards for dress ... "how dare you (or anyone) tell me how I ought to dress" ... as if they've just had their moral fibre called into question. Start a thread here about how it'd be nice if everyone took their hats off when they sit down at a restaurant "just like in the good old days" and the arguments lead to thread-lock.
Oh dear.
One more thing there ... nowadays, we are conditioned to not want to wear the same stuff over and over again. And it's not just about keeping up with fashion (although that doesn't help
), we just get bombarded with so much advertising and urgings to buy that we're just not satisfied with owning a few things ... we have to have a lot of things. (How many of you own ONE razor, ONE brush, ONE shave soap, and ONE aftershave ... the way all our grandfathers did?) And then, we have the post-war phenomenon of having some third-world country/ies out there ready, willing and able to make mountains of cheap crap to satiate our current desire to own a bunch of new stuff. Depending on how old you are, you will remember back when "Made in Japan", "Made in Hong Kong", and "Made in Taiwan" all had the same "this is cheap crap" connotation that "Made in China" now does.
I can't add too much to this discussion except to say that I figure that the way people dress and carry themselves is a pretty strong indicator of their self image. I'm also old enough to remember growing up in an age where sneakers (except for sports) were for people that couldn't afford shoes, so what do I know? I suppose that when your persona is on-line, then who cares what you look like.....
I think there are strong economic reasons as well. Standard of living has declined markedly over the last 70 years. No longer can a single income family be part of the comfortable middle class. With the need to spend more time working, and all the running around taking care of the home and kids, there is less time to take care of things like clothes that need special care and upkeep. The average person I know (and I'm a PhD working around solid earners) seems to be running themselves ragged, and dreads the idea of going to the dry cleaners. So the economy of time requires things like shirt services, and pickup/drop off for dry cleaning, and those kinds of bills add up. there are 2 people in my company I see regularly wearing business suits, and they are both AVPs looking to climb the corporate ladder. Our chief corporate officers do not even dress that well.
