It' so sad; I'm really angry

[Roman414]

Yes, I have subdued men who didn't want to be arrested. Never been a cop, but I did six months on Shore Patrol in the Navy. We didn't have guns, mace, or tazers, but we had batons...very effective at close range if you have been trained to use one. You don't swing it, you jab with it. I never had to use my baton. My partner and I would tackle an adversary together, one high and one low. Get an aikido wrist or arm hold on him, he can't do anything. Then cuff him and put him in the wagon. We had a week of baton and unarmed combat training before we assumed our duties. Anyone who has to pull a gun on an unarmed opponent, especially when there are two or more of you, is too fearful and timid to be a police officer. Just my opinion.

[SilkySmooth]

Just kiddin' at your prior defense of the device. I knew that would get a rise out of someone. There's probably more to the story that we haven't seen. It's also ashame that someone lost their life over the ordeal.


==Tom

[iron maiden]

Roman414, you do realize that today you'd have to hold an advanced degree and a whole lot of other qualifications to wield your simple nightstick.

Silkysmooth, wasn't getting mad, just wanted to clarify the technical aspects of the tazer.

But this does bring a good point. I remember when the tazer was being introduced to the troopers at the academy. It was hailed as an end to resisting arrests of any kind because the absolute horror and pain of the device would get spread around quickly. When we first got it, this actually happened. I can remember being called to respond to fights, domestic disturbances etc. when we were first issued the tazer to assist other officers who didn't have the tazer. Most of the time, people who were fighting would see the state trooper car pull up, and they would just cease and desist.

But once other agencies got issued the tazer, and it was used more and more, word seemed to spread around that it wasn't the fix-all, and could be defeated with a little luck and the effectiveness of it has diminished somewhat over the years. I don't know what the future will hold for the tazer. I am not getting paid to endorse it, and don't have any stock in the company. But I would say that if I'm ever a civilian at an event and the tazers are being pointed at me, I'll probably do what the cop says.

[SilkySmooth]

Back in the day it was always pepper spray, nightstick, gun. Now where does the tazer fall in between spray and stick or stick and gun or before spray or after gun?



==Tom

[BMWRider]

I would expect someone working in a thankless profession to be more understanding of those working in another thankless profession.

I have worked in both. Just as some teachers scare me, some officers scare me. The days of protect and serve seem to have been replaced by a paramilitary mindset that is disturbing. There are many law enforcement organizations that have not adopted the use of Tazers, and they have good reasons for doing so. Just because most officers out there are good hard working people trying to do their jobs, does not mean I won't criticize those who attended the Lon Horiuchi LE Academy.

[Suzuki]

At least 2 witnesses said that he was tazed four times

20 seconds elapsed between the time the cops first engaged him and then decided to tazed him. During those 20 seconds Dziekanski didn't do anything threatening, in fact at one point he walked away with his hands raised. At least twice on the video his hands were clearly seen. He wasn't holding anything.
At the time when the cops (not the security guards) show up he was pretty calm. Might have something to do with the fact that he was heard calling "policja". Perhaps at this point he thought he would finally get some help.


No one is excusing his behavior. However, his anger and frustration are understandable. The cop's reaction is not.
The guy was lost in international arrival area for over 8 hours. His mother who was waiting for him at baggage claim. When he didn't show up she inquired about him several times. Hours later she was told that her son never arrived. So yes, YVR did screw up.

Well, at least you feel sorry for his mother, that's something.

I was answering to the poster brought the Rodney King incident into this. You took it out of context.

A fine, sure. A night in a cell yes.

Getting tazed to death? No

As for how many times this guy was tazed, I still think its likely less than 4, but I'll let the experts analyze the tape and see what the person holding the tazer says rather than rely on witness statements. Witness statements are often unreliable and have been proven so on several occasions.

I think we should wait to hear from the Airport authorities before concluding that they "screwed up". Its the airlines who have detailed passenger information. We also don't know if there were any other issues that complicated the situation.

I do feel sorry for his mother - but the fact that she's lost a son is, in the big picture, incidental to the larger issue of if, when and how law enforcement officers use tazers (and force generally). The media doesn't care one bit about this woman, she's only being put on TV because the image of a tearful mother gets ratings/sells ads. In the context of the media coverage of this incident, the mother is nothing but a tool to the media. If the dead man had been an orphan, would/should we care less about what happened?

This is a good example of typical irresponsible media - they sensationalize the story, provide selective disclosure and then get a bunch of "man/woman in the street" comments and cherry pick the ones they actually print/air. The majority of the mass media in Canada is left-leaning and this bias is often reflected in the way they cover news. Compounding this is the fact that the RCMP and airport authorities can't make any comment, as they have to conduct internal investigations before they are in a position to do so. This "no comment" only fuels the media's ability to sensationalize a story. (I realize I've now introduced another potentially contentious issue regarding media bias/coverage/morality and whether media reports vs. makes the news - but I think its relevant to the discussion as to whether the police did or didn't act appropriately in this situation.).

Also, when was the last time you saw a headline like this:

"Police use of tazers dramatically reduces injuries to both police officers and suspects"

or

"Police successfully take down suspect with tazer without incident"

We're not going to see these types of headlines because they don't sell - despite the fact that they are a much more accurate reflection of tazer use than the headlines that are running now.

As for deserving what he got, I'm not suggesting that he deserved to die - nor do I think you believe that this is what I meant. What I do mean is that when you act erratically in a place like an airport, you can expect law enforcement to become involved. In this case that led to this man's death, but there was certainly no intent on the part of the police officers to kill - in fact, I suspect that they reasonably believed that the use of a tazer would minimize harm to the person they were trying to arrest.

Yes, I have subdued men who didn't want to be arrested. Never been a cop, but I did six months on Shore Patrol in the Navy. We didn't have guns, mace, or tazers, but we had batons...very effective at close range if you have been trained to use one. You don't swing it, you jab with it. I never had to use my baton. My partner and I would tackle an adversary together, one high and one low. Get an aikido wrist or arm hold on him, he can't do anything. Then cuff him and put him in the wagon. We had a week of baton and unarmed combat training before we assumed our duties. Anyone who has to pull a gun on an unarmed opponent, especially when there are two or more of you, is too fearful and timid to be a police officer. Just my opinion.

I'm glad that in your 6 montsh of SP, you never had to use your baton and that you and your partner were able to take people into custody without issue.

I also suspect that none of the people you arrested were high on coke and that you didn't worry about that possibility. I also suspect you didn't worry too much about having someone come at you with a weapon.

I think that your limited experience in a very distinct type of policing/enforcement environment (military policing of military personnel) does not qualify you to make a blanket statement that "Anyone who has to pull a gun on an unarmed opponent, especially when there are two or more of you, is too fearful and timid to be a police officer."

Yes, you're entitled to your opinion, but it does contrast with the restraint/suspect control procedures being taught by most law enforcement agencies. So I guess what you're saying is that most cops today are wusses who shouldn't be cops because they're not as tough as the SP and, wherever possible use 3 or 4 officers to do a takedown.

While two police officers might be able to takedown an unarmed suspect (and lets be fair here, you don't always have the luxury of knowing whether someone is armed, high or a ninja blackbelt who can beat the crap out of a couple of cops without breaking a sweat), its going to require a lot of force if the person vigorously resists, as well as more danger to the police officers. The restraint/control techniques being taught today involve completely overwhelming the suspect by having multiple officers restrain the head and limbs without having to use excessive force and without having to put excessive weight/pressure on the chest/abdomen - why - to both prevent the risk of escape/injury to police officers and to prevent injury to the suspect. This isn't about being macho, its about taking someone down as quickly as possible while minimizing the risk of injury to all involved.

There's probably more to the story that we haven't seen. It's also ashame that someone lost their life over the ordeal.


==Tom

I agree 100% on all counts.

[Groundhog]

FYI to all concerned - the Taser has a chip inside that is removed for data download; the investigators will know exactly the number times it was used, and whether or not it was "fired" (using the barbs), or used in the "drive" mode (which is like a stun gun).

[ScottS]

Well, if Tazers effect different people in different ways, they should not be used, period.

Some can die because of it, some can't; so basically, you can kill a man who is not that dangerous because the previous guy you have tazed didn't die ?

When I doubt, don't do anything

If you take away this less-lethal option, more people will die or receive serious injury. It's all about numbers-- like most public health concerns.

[Suzuki]

If you take away this less-lethal option, more people will die or receive serious injury. It's all about numbers-- like most public health concerns.

Exactly! Doctors screw up operations, people die from contaminated food, etc.

This doesn't mean that we should prohibit operations or processing food (the alternative to which is having everyone grow/raise their own).

Again, its very unfortunate that a man died and there should be scrutiny as to whether this was an appropriate use of a tazer, as well as whether there should be changes made to tazers to prevent this type of thing from happening. However, the call for a moratorium on tazer use is premature and nothing but a knee-jerk reaction.

[galopede]

Police taser man in diabetic coma

An interesting taser report on yesterday's BBC news...

[SLider]

Police taser man in diabetic coma

An interesting taser report on yesterday's BBC news...

from the article "He said as this was happening, another officer was pointing a real gun at his head."

If he was in a diabetic coma, how would he know they were holding a gun to his head?

[Suzuki]

from the article "He said as this was happening, another officer was pointing a real gun at his head."

If he was in a diabetic coma, how would he know they were holding a gun to his head?

Silly you, you're letting facts/logic get in the way of a sensationalist piece of "journalism".

You'll never make it an a Fox anchor

[Roman414]

Suzuki, we never knew if someone was armed either, although your point about the different populations is probably valid. My point, if you coordinate with your partner, one tackle high and one tackle low, he will go down. And if you do get hit going in the blow will not have much power behind it. I got a few uniforms ruined and a few abrasions but I never had to kill anyone.
I think attitude has a whole lot to do with it, and sometimes the police create or exacerbate situations with their attitudes. If a police officer approaches me with courtesy and respect, I understand he is doing a job and my instinct is to cooperate with him. If he gets in my face in a confrontational, intimidating way my instinct is to give it right back to him. I suspect most men are the same way. Some cops, I think, are ltheir own worst enemies.

[ScottS]

People with severe glucose problems can have impaired judgment and can be fairly belligerent, and police on the scene have no idea as to why. If this is what happened, the man should be thankful that he wasn't seriously injured.

[SLider]

Suzuki, we never knew if someone was armed either, although your point about the different populations is probably valid. My point, if you coordinate with your partner, one tackle high and one tackle low, he will go down. And if you do get hit going in the blow will not have much power behind it. I got a few uniforms ruined and a few abrasions but I never had to kill anyone.
I think attitude has a whole lot to do with it, and sometimes the police create or exacerbate situations with their attitudes. If a police officer approaches me with courtesy and respect, I understand he is doing a job and my instinct is to cooperate with him. If he gets in my face in a confrontational, intimidating way my instinct is to give it right back to him. I suspect most men are the same way. Some cops, I think, are ltheir own worst enemies.

Honestly, I think the odds of breaking your neck from tackling someone (or breaking the neck of the victim) are probably pretty similar to the odds of someone getting killed by a tazer. Judging by all the sweat and heavy breathing the victim was displaying, and the amount of struggle he still put up AFTER the tazer shot, he could have easily had some kind of heart failure due to all the exertion

[Suzuki]

Suzuki, we never knew if someone was armed either, although your point about the different populations is probably valid. My point, if you coordinate with your partner, one tackle high and one tackle low, he will go down. And if you do get hit going in the blow will not have much power behind it. I got a few uniforms ruined and a few abrasions but I never had to kill anyone.
I think attitude has a whole lot to do with it, and sometimes the police create or exacerbate situations with their attitudes. If a police officer approaches me with courtesy and respect, I understand he is doing a job and my instinct is to cooperate with him. If he gets in my face in a confrontational, intimidating way my instinct is to give it right back to him. I suspect most men are the same way. Some cops, I think, are ltheir own worst enemies.

My point was that I think there's a difference between SP arresting military personnel (including facing military justice for resisiting arrest/assulting SP, etc...) and a cop on the beat facing more variables. I'm not trying to suggest in any way that a nasty, drunk sailor/marine will peaceably comply with the SP or that you didn't have some dangerous situation on your hands. Also, you can generally assume that most military personnel are in reasonably good health (generally sailors/marines don't have heart/lung conditions, etc...).

Also the "tackle" method you described is undoubtedly effective, but it does require a fair bit of force - something that is possibly less tolerated on civy street than in the forces. Knocking someone down like that may not result in injury to the tacklers, but it can certainly result in injury to the tacklee - who gets knocked down and ends up with two SPs on top of him to boot.

I agree totally that attitude can play a big role in whether an officer cools off or exacerbates a situation. Like any other profession, there are cops out there who really aren't suited for their work.

[Dr. Mike]

You know, if they issued police carrots to use to subdue people, I'm sure the media would be able to find somewhere a video of a person dying as a result of the police subduing them with a carrot.
To be honest, I don't know why anybody would want to be a cop anymore. There is nothing good about it. When you do your job well, nobody notices it. When you screw up, or when people are convinced you screwed up, they want your head on a platter. So many people anymore just assume that cops are racist and crooked by nature. The only time anybody has anything good to say about cops is when one is killed in the line of duty. And yet how much better are our lives thanks to them?
Am I sorry the guy died? Yes. I don't know, though, what happened to bring it all about. I'm glad that some people already know exactly what happened and are ready with their verdict based on somebody's edited together video clips and some witness testimony. You should be volunteering for jury duty based on your perfect judgement skills.
Do I think this was done by 4 cops meaning to intentionally hurt this guy, maybe even kill him, just because they were on some power kick and a bunch of cowards? Again, not having all the evidence, I can't say, but I tend to think not. If that is your motive, you take the guy out back where there are no witnesses. In this day and age, with everybody owning a cell phone being able to take pictures and shoot video, looking for hot footage to post on YouTube, do you really think that is what these guys were wanting to do? Even in clear cut cases, I can imagine every police-related fatality gets heavily investigated. That these 4 cops would willingly and knowingly endanger the life of a man for no good reason in broad daylight, in a crowded facility, with plenty of witnesses observing, is hard to believe.

[jnich67]

I agree with those stating that we should wait for a proper investigation before condemning those who put their lives on the line to protect us everyday - if anything, we should give them the benefit of the doubt. Either way, this death is tragic.

And, people who know little to nothing about the tactical realities of police work should refrain from telling cops "their business". That's not to say mistakes don't happen or that there aren't a few bad apples in the bunch, but you wouldn't tell a doctor what he did wrong if they lost a patient or missed a diagnosis. Should those situations be investigated and lessons applied? Of course, but I get sick of hearing "why didn't they just shoot him in the leg?" from people who've never fired a hand gun, let alone been under the stress of a life threatening situation. Life is not like an episode of "The A-Team".

I'm almost done with my rant...as Chris has pointed out; the media play a huge role in stirring the pot. I recently took a job where I work from home 90% of the time and I usually have the cable news stations on in the background. It is shocking how far they have come in "creating" news instead of reporting it. They are desperate to fill time and create headlines. Everyone needs to calm down and let things play out. It takes more than a few hours or days to collect the facts.

There...TGIF!

Jordan

[Dr. Mike]

from the article "He said as this was happening, another officer was pointing a real gun at his head."

If he was in a diabetic coma, how would he know they were holding a gun to his head?

I can only imagine that someone else reported to him that the police put a gun to his head. However, the bigger question arises. If he was in a coma already when he was tasered and had a gun to his head, he can't possibly know at all what happened to him. In that case, how can he have post traumatic stress disorder from the incident? I could imagine he might be a bit perplexed, or maybe even angry. But PTSD?
As a diabetic myself, I have never gone into a coma. However, I have had many times when my blood sugar gets very low, and my wife will tell you that I am not myself then. In addition to chills and profuse sweating, I tend to be short tempered, and will get upset and yell for the stupidest things. In addition, my judgment becomes impaired, and I will do stupid things (like walk downstairs in the middle of the night without telling my wife my blood sugar is low, so if I were to pass out, she wouldn't know until the next day). Not to say that all my actions are logical and well thought out at other times!

[denissawyer]

Several witnesses told the cops that he didn't speak English, that he only spoke Russian (I guess it sounds like Polish).

It has been confirmed that the man was from Poland. The ongoing investigation should reveal some pretty grimmey details of the incident however an independent committee has been formed that will probably support the actions of the RCMP.