Lily White Washita Oil Hone

Short story: The Lily White Washita Oil Hone is sensitive to surface finish, is able to hone like a 300 grit oil stone, or an ~7K stone. It's edge is passable, and if I spent more time learning, I could shave off it daily. If I used some CrOx, it would be great with the edge as-is. Long story below.



Long story: When I was first getting started straight razor shaving (and honing), I came across some old oil stones that were for sale for what I thought was a very reasonable price. At that time, I had only a Harbor Freight 4 sided hone maxing out at 600 grit, and a Spyderco Ultra Fine (12K+), and it took (literally) a whole day to jump between one and the other, so I was looking for some intermediate hones. The seller thought the grit ratings of the stones were something like 1K/2K (combo), 4K, and 8K. I thought that if he was right, it was a perfect way to round out my honing setup! Well, the 1K/2K turned out to be more like 100/220 (the 220 side works well for rough work, the 100 side is too rough), and the 8K was the same as the 220 side. The third stone, the "4K" Lily White Washita Oil Hone got lapped with some 320 grit wet/dry, and used. It performed just above the level of the 220 stones. Fast forward a year... I am honing a couple razors when I do something stupid and ding the edge of the razor (it was going to happen eventually), so now I have to hone out the ding. Instead of grabbing the Norton Medium (220), I grabbed the Lily White and went to town. It seemed the longer I worked it, the slower and slower it got, until eventually it became apparent that the chip wasn't coming out with this stone (and there was just a tiny little itty bitty chip left!). I grabbed a 1K and finished the chip removal, but wanted to compare back what the edge looked like to the Lily White, so I put the razor back on the Lily White, and it took it's sweet time removing the scratches from the 1K, and didn't blacken the oil like I was used to, it more or less just greyed it a bit. Excited to see just how fine the edge was, I cleaned the razor, stropped and shaved. IT SHAVED! (quite well I might add). It is certainly a better edge than 4K, though the scratch pattern wouldn't tell you that, and only gave a little bit of resistance on my mustache area. 2 passes DFS (about as good as I can hope for). It turns out the Lily White is a variety of Arkansas Stone...
Has anyone else had the pleasure of using a Lily White AND shaving off it?

Nice story. I have heard that a lily white is capable of a wide latitude, which piqued my interest; so I picked up a vintage Pike lily white like yours a few months back, or just before my extended stay in France, and haven't had a chance to try it yet. One thing, though: if I am not mistaken, the lily white hails from New Hampshire, not Arkansas. Norton/Saint-Gobain came out with a limited run of modern lily whites around 5-6 years ago, and owns the old NH Pike mine there. They claim that the mine is exhausted, which is largely held to be untrue; when pressed, they then claim that the stone is redundant given their current line of artificial stones. From this, one could fear that they are currently in the business of buying mines, if only to sit on them.

That's pretty cool. Reminds me of a Cretan hone the way it breaks down the longer you use it and gets finer and finer.

I wasn't using a slurry, but yes, like the Cretan hone for versatility. When lapped at 320 grit it acted like a 320 grit hone, after a couple hours of hard solid use, it's producing a shavable edge. It's still a LONG jump from that edge up to the CNat or Spyderco UF, but it's pretty cool. It actually makes me want to re-lap it, and see what kind of edge I would get off it at various time increments... but then, I should know better and leave well enough alone...
I hope the Lily White you got turns out to be a pleasant surprise to you also! It's possible the stones were mined in New Hampshire, I just found a reference that said "A Washita stone is just variety of a soft Arkansas stone..."

Here are a couple of links that might prove of interest:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=59 http://www.woodcentral.com/woodwork...3105/md/read/id/60194/sbj/lily-white-washita/.

Interesting. It looks like I am not the first to find that this stone can produce a shaving edge. I am glad I got one from the "old stock". I wonder how long ago it was quarried... I also see that some are recommending that it be used with water, and I would say that I have only used mine with oil, mineral oil from the drug store, and hadn't given a thought to using it with water (especially seeing as how it's label says "Oil Hone"). Perhaps it would cut faster on water... Oh the testing possibilities!

Think back to the days of dough-boys marching in the streets IMO. Joel, the author of the articles, or one of his associates, elsewhere recommends a 1:1 combination of mineral oil with kerosene for oil-honing. That is what I use for the Arkansas stones, and what I will probably use for the lily white--although he claims the latter is soft like a Japanese waterstone and therefore won't glaze over (which I don't believe).

That's about how old I was thinking. It looked like it was at least 50+ years. I have stuck to just mineral oil because it doesn't have a scent. I think Norton makes an oil that is just highly refined mineral oil that I would look into if I needed a thinner oil for some reason, but so far, so good.
As far as "soft like a Japanese waterstone", I have nothing to compare it to that way, and haven't honed enough on any one stone to make a good comparison.
I look forward to hearing how you like your stone when you do get a chance to use it. Right now, I am tickled pink with mine .

I managed to get some time and work on a second razor. I took it from 1.2K (well worn in DMT) to NEARLY shaving in about 20 minutes. I say NEARLY shaving since there was definitely some tugging, it was not comfortable, and as a consequence, I didn't shave my goatee area because I knew for sure that my mustache would be a big problem. This is with the stone barely cutting. I knew I should work it longer, but I had to help the wife with something, and never got back to it before the shave this morning.
I plan to see if it will kick up a slurry with a gentle rubbing from my CNat slurry stone, and see how that works.
I am also starting to wonder if the stone really left a "non-shavable" edge when it was lapped at 320 grit, seeing as how I never tried shaving off that edge (afterall, I found online that a Washita was a 300 grit stone...). The first thing that gave me a lot of hope in the stone was that it cleared arm hair on the underside of my arm (the DMT1.2K won't do that), thus I knew that it was more refined than 1.2K (that or a fluke). I may have to test this one out also .

I tried kicking up a slurry with the CNat slurry stone, and it didn't go so well. Apparently, neither of them wanted to slurry against the other. I did manage to get a real small amount of greyish-white slurry, and worked with that (not sure it helped much). I worked on water (not oil as previously) and was able to get good results on the razor. Part of the blade didn't get hit quite as much as it needed, but that's not the stone's fault. I think I will try using a slate slurry stone on the next bevel set I need to do. I am sure the slurry will be slate, not Lily White, but it will be interesting to see the results.
I don't really need to lap the stone, so I think that re-lapping at 320 grit will wait.

Back to the stone in question, I dug it out this weekend and tried to make it ready for use. Judging from the label and the edges of the stone, it didn't seem to have been used much, although there was swarf covering most of the surfaces. I found it a very hard stone at the beginning. Spent most of yesterday afternoon (six sheets of paper) removing the swarf with 150x w/d. Then, a sequence of 220x, 320x, 400x, went pretty quickly and the stone’s surface didn't seem to be polishing further, so I stopped there.

Today, I honed a razor that has been giving me some problems with micro-chipping, to see how it would take to this. Didn't seem to be removing the chips, and the scratch patterns were rougher than, say, a vintage trans Ark; but I decided to shave with it afterwards anyway, just to see how it would go (linen then leather stropping). The result was similar to your first attempt, approaching DFS with some tugging beneath the nostrils and just below the jawline. Alum block afterwards revealed a very slight burn, and while I would call this a cowboy-style shave, the edge certainly could be improved upon with the pastes afterwards.


Followed the shave by honing on a Hindostan stone, which seemed to address the micro-chipping more quickly. From this, I concluded that the Lily White as lapped must be somewhere between the Hindostan and a trans Ark, although with pressure, I'm sure that it could be more aggressive (so is this to say that with a lighter touch, it could be finer?). Finished on the trans Ark for tomorrow’s shave, just to see if this will be closer and smoother.

Edit: Dan's Honing Oil in all cases.

Here are some pix:

Interesting story.

Thanks for sharing!

Thank you for the picture of the label on the hone. I think mine is exactly the same, but in much worse condition .

PapaFish said:

Thank you for the picture of the label on the hone. I think mine is exactly the same, but in much worse condition .

Click to expand...

You're welcome. Think I might frame the label to hang in my shave den. Another reason why I thought it hadn't been used all that much was on account of the label. From the dishing in the stone (most noticeable in shot no. 4) my guess is that the stone was used to hone plane irons a little bit, just as in the label's illustration. Today's shave, Hindostan to trans. Ark., did not go as well as yesterday's. Tried stropping on red/black Dovo pastes after two passes, but this did not help much either. So tonight, I spent a little bit more time with the Lily White, putting more pressure from the start and then ending with a light touch. I am far from being an expert on this, but my sense is that it could be a versatile stone when used in the right hands. If anything, it is a thirsty stone as compared to the denser Arks. So now it's going to soak in the oil for a few days. Finish and polish on the edge/bevel, when viewed with a loupe, seemed slightly rougher than a coticule. I'll try to shave with it again this weekend.

I have been out of town, and won't be back for another week, but I plan on trying the Lily White on a couple razors when I get back. I am thinking the edge might be improved with a bit more care on my part, and I think it should be shavable easily with pastes to follow. Once I have time, I will post back on the results.
I like the idea of framing the label, it's a great article that represents sharpening and shaving. Yours is in really nice condition, so it would make a classy addition to the shave den .

The Lily White Washita stones are excellent stones but aren't worth a damn for razors. Yes, you can get an edge you can shave with, but it will never be a truly fine or comfortable edge. It was designed as a quick finisher for woodworking tools - it cut fairly fast on carbon based steels and left an edge good enough to cut wood or whatever if you were doing a sheath knife or kitchen knife with it. If people wanted more, they followed it up with a translucent or black arkansas for final finishing - but this last step wasn't truly necessary. With tools, that was an option, but with a razor it is not. Lily White's are the best of all the washita stones, ( I have and use maybe a dozen or so of them, as well as #1 and #2 grade washita stones as well) but they are not quite fine enough to finish the edge on a straight razor unless you are willing to settle for something sub-standard. Even if you use them for setting up an edge, it takes a lot longer to take out the scratches than if you put the initial edge on the razor with a coticule or similar type of stone.

My advise would be save yourself some grief and time and use something else for razors. After trial and error, I do.

Stonehenge: Well first, they weren't designed, unless you are a believer in some omnipotent being placing them there for people to use them as whetstones for a couple hundred years. I doubt anyone here is looking for them to be the most expedient way to set a bevel anyway. (After all, using a straight razor isn't a great way to get instant results.) I think the point more has to do with the intrigue of these rocks.

Also, Alan: The Lily White washita is the top grade of washita, which comes from the Ouchita (or Washita) mountains in Arkansas. If you look, you'll find old geological reports discussing this and other grades of novaculite.