Do I need a hone beyond the Norton 4000/8000?

[fc2462]

I watched Lynn's video and in that, when he hones a razor, he uses the venerable Norton 4000/8000 but then uses a Belgian Coticule to finish.

I started looking into the Belgian Coticule and all information that I can find indicates that this is also an 8000 grit stone.

I was wondering if the Coticule is 8000 also, is there any appreciable advantage to finishing with that or am I better off with one of the high grit Shaptons or something? Furthermore, do I even really need anything beyond the Norton 4000/8000?

If finishing with the Coticule is really the best, can anyone recommend a good source to purchase one?

Thanks,
Frank

[ouch]

When is a grit not a grit?

Scales for measuring grit size are arbitrary, and different ones exist. What's important is the actual size of the cutting particles in microns. The Norton combo uses a 6μ/3μ grit, which makes it coarser than the the equivalent Shapton 4K (3.68μ) and 8K (1.84μ) stones. The Norton 4K side is closer in coarseness to the Shapton 2K (7.35μ), and the 8K side is approximately equal to a Shapton 5K (2.94μ)

So two stones can be labeled as having the same grit, yet have different cutting abilities.

[moses]

Frank,

I'm no expert on this. In fact, I'm a rank beginner. But I've read enough to have a fair idea what the answers are to your questions, so I'll throw some out, since I'm the first to come upon your thread.

Yes, the coticules are generally described as being 8000 grit. Which is what the Norton is. But grit is a little deceptive. For one thing, I'm not even sure the measure of it is always consistent. Not sure about that though. Also, the coticule is a natural stone, so the size of the particles will have some variation, from stone to stone, and in a particular stone. Mostly though, the way particles of the same size cut will not be the same, depending on what they are made of. The coticule is much less aggressive than the Norton, meaning that even though the particles might be the same size, they do not dig in and cut as sharply. So it will cut much shallower grooves. Which pretty directly results in a smoother finish. The same principle would apply to why some people feel that chromium oxide paste, at .5 micron, gives a smoother edge than .25 micron diamond paste.

From everything I have seen, there is pretty universally agreed to be an advantage in smoothness and sharpness by finishing with one of these after a Norton.

As opposed to another stone, whether it be Shapton, Spyderco, or even a pasted strop, is more problematic. It seems everyone has their own preferred finished method. The coticule is definitely a favorite, but one of many. The nice thing for us newbies, though, is that like the Norton, an awful lot of people use it, to getting advice will be easy.

There are a couple of recommended sources. Since it is a natural stone, I understand that quality can vary, so you want a good source. Someone else will fill you in on that, I don't remember.

-Mo

[moses]

When is a grit not a grit?

Scales for measuring grit size are arbitrary, and different ones exist. What's important is the actual size of the cutting particles in microns. The Norton combo uses a 6μ/3μ grit, which makes it coarser than the the equivalent Shapton 4K (3.68μ) and 8K (1.84μ) stones. The Norton 4K side is closer in coarseness to the Shapton 2K (7.35μ), and the 8K side is approximately equal to a Shapton 5K (2.94μ)

So two stones can be labeled as having the same grit, yet have different cutting abilities.

Jay, what do you make of the less sharp particles equal shallower grooves theory, as well? It makes a fair degree of sense to me, but I've always wondered.

-Mo

[fc2462]

I guess that makes a lot more sense now. So grit measurement may be a sliding scale assigned by the manufacturer and the true measurement is the size in microns. So do the manufacturers publish the grit size along with the actual measurement in microns? I understand the coticule is a natural stone so its grit will vary.

I know I've read numerious posts indicating how much Lynn likes the coticule stone and he has said he likes it better than even some of the new really high grit Japanese stones.

If anyone has a line on a reliable source for the coticule stone, please let me know.

[joel]

I watched Lynn's video and in that, when he hones a razor, he uses the venerable Norton 4000/8000 but then uses a Belgian Coticule to finish.

I started looking into the Belgian Coticule and all information that I can find indicates that this is also an 8000 grit stone.

I was wondering if the Coticule is 8000 also, is there any appreciable advantage to finishing with that or am I better off with one of the high grit Shaptons or something? Furthermore, do I even really need anything beyond the Norton 4000/8000?

If finishing with the Coticule is really the best, can anyone recommend a good source to purchase one?

Thanks,
Frank

Frank,
Coticule's also cut differently, as basically they work by 10-13 micron sized garnets being scrunched together, to which their edges/points create about a 3 micron grit, and do to the angles and such, there is all sorts of hubbub about them cutting especially smooth and the like.

Coticules are superb stones, but they are pricey, and I'd personally suggest going with the Chinese 12K for $30, which in my opinion works as good - if no BETTER than the coticule.

[ouch]

When you get to the really fine stages, keep in mind that the grit size is on the order of the wavelength of visible light.

[fc2462]

Thanks for the suggestion Joel, for $30 its worth a try before I spend $175 on a decent size coticule.

[joel]

Thanks for the suggestion Joel, for $30 its worth a try before I spend $175 on a decent size coticule.

For the love of god don't spend $175 on a Coticule. If you do, you will more than likely be INCREDIBLY dissapointed.

[fc2462]

Yeah, all the prices I've checked so far, a decent size (8x2) coticule runs around $175. That's why I asked on the forum because I thought it was probabably not necessary or there were cheaper and/or better solutions available. I'm sure its just expensive because its a natural product mined out of the earth as opposed to manmade. On those, the bigger the stone, the price rises exponentially.

Thanks,
Frank

[izlat]

Howard from theperfectedge.com is your best source for coticules.

It doesn't have to be as expensive and big to work well at all (it's another thing if you want it big)

I wouldn't go with the Chinese 12K because I hear they are very slow cutters. If you have the patience and prefer to spend less $ - I guess this would work for you, though

Many people are OK with N8K edge. Heck, I hear people in Germany shave with edges from Blue Belgian hones. I like coticule edges, but prefer even finer finish (higher grit stones, chromium, etc.)

Good luck
Ivo

[Gamma]

I have a $40.00 coticule bout on my bench that I can use to set a bevel and finish any blade to an edge that's sublime. I got it at the Superior Shave.
I personally don't think that Chinese hone is worth 12 bucks, let alone 30 but whatever.

[Neurotopia]

Frank,
Coticule's also cut differently, as basically they work by 10-13 micron sized garnets being scrunched together, to which their edges/points create about a 3 micron grit, and do to the angles and such, there is all sorts of hubbub about them cutting especially smooth and the like.

Coticules are superb stones, but they are pricey, and I'd personally suggest going with the Chinese 12K for $30, which in my opinion works as good - if no BETTER than the coticule.

Given much more limited experience, I'd say that the Chinese doesn't work better, but it is easier and much more consistent for a beginner. Plus it provides good technique practice.

When you're just starting out, unless you're really dedicated, learning a coti is just tougher. Not to say they can't be excellent finish-only stones, but every one is going to have its little quirks, even at the finishing stage. If somebody doesn't tell you what they are, you may not end up with the best edge you can get. In fact you might get an inferior edge if, say, nobody told you that this particular vein requires you to use medium pressure and then light pressure, or you have to rinse it every 20 strokes because your stone auto-slurries and you get slight edge degradation.

Otoh, the Chinese is virtually foolproof assuming 2 things: 1. your technique is sound and 2. your stone is flat. Follow it up with CrOx and you're going to have a very nice shave. Maybe not the best, but definitely worth building on. Plus somebody will always be around to buy the Cnat and recoup expenses somewhat if you decide to upgrade.

[Harvitz81]

Talk about raising a thread from the dead...

[jeness]

Hey, only 3 and a half years old...

[Legion]

Gamma - King of the Zombie thread!

I'm actually glad this came up again, because it is pertinent to my day's honing. I took a French frameback, which had been sitting in the "to do" pile for almost a year, hand sanded it, made new acrylic pants for it, and then honed.

I used a coticule with slurry to establish the bevel, just water to take it up to about 8kish, and then went to my trusty Cnat, then CrO and shave.

= BBS.

[Gamma]

Didn't even notice this thread was old - not even sure how I wound up here.
That's what happens when I'm surfing and searching - I get zoned.

Big zombie fan here.

[Utopian]

I have a $40.00 coticule bout on my bench that I can use to set a bevel and finish any blade to an edge that's sublime. I got it at the Superior Shave.
I personally don't think that Chinese hone is worth 12 bucks, let alone 30 but whatever.

OK, how much experience do you have with the Chinese hones? How many have you used? You certainly cannot judge them based on one or none, as they are natural rocks and can vary dramatically in performance, just like coticules.

And once again, a coticule is not 8000 grit and a Chinese hone is not 12000 grit.

[wdwrx]

How much experience does it take to realize that there are better options out there? You generally get what you pay for, IMHE, and 30 bucks doesn't go very far in my world. I for one have no problem proclaiming that, sure, a $30 stone will do the job, if you like driving Yugos, but I'd rather cruise with a bit more style... say in a Cadillac, or, better yet, something Beligium or Japanese.