I bet your 1 pass is closer than my 9 pass.

[Guido]

After using an electric for 20+ years I decided to try a DE a couple weeks ago..
My first attempt was surprisingly successful, but then it went downhill from there. My last attempt ended up being a 6 pass (lather between each), and a few hours later I tried another 3 passes..
Seems no matter what I do I can't get the stubble under my jawline, chin, and bottom of neck. Shaving WTG goes smooth, but does nothing in those areas. .Shaving ATG immediately stops the razor as it catches the stubble. XTG is little better than WTG..
With light pressure it tries to pull my skin off. With zero pressure the blade hops along my face..It "sounds" like it's slicing each hair, but when I rub my hand on it nothing has changed..
I've tried all angles and 3 different blades. I'm using a Merkur HD with Proraso soap. Always after showering. I've watched a good 12 hrs on YouTube, but none of the videos end up with pink soap!

I know this is wrong, but ironically the only way I stand a chance of cutting those hairs is to hold the razor at almost 90 degrees (perpendicular), push down hard, then drag it on it's head a mm at a time, slicing 1 hair at a time..

The rest if my face (cheeks, sides) are perfect in 2-3 passes..

I have a feather blade I didn't try, but I'm hesitant considering the amount of bloodshed I've experienced with the milder blades..

Having said all that, I still look forward to each and every shave. Adds excitement to my life LOL

[CorAnd]

Sounds like a prep and blade angle issue. Besides the shower, what else are you doing for your prep? Try lathering up your face and neck for a minute or so, then let that lather sit on your face for a good three to four minutes. Then, wipe most of the lather off with a hot wet towel. Re-hydrate your face quick and lather up again. Shave.

Look up the blade angle article done by one of our members in the Shave Wiki. It has some really nice pictures of the relationship between the blade and your skin, and what happens to your whiskers at each angle.


Remember, hot water will weaken the protective barrier surrounding the hair you're trying to cut. Once you thoroughly inundate your beard with hot water, use some sort of face wash that has glycerin and some kind of alkali in it. Alkalies will further open up the follicle, allowing softening treatments to take affect and soften your beard. When you lather your shaving cream or soap into your beard and let that sit, your beard should be pretty defenseless against the moisturizing properties of the shaving lather, and your brush should help lift the hair for easier cutting.

[slantfan]

Well you're bleeding so it may be the blade angle. Imagine the edge of the blade striking the hair shaft straight ahead. If the angles off you're cutting into the skin or the edge of the blade is skimming over the hair.

[mblakele]

Welcome to B&B!

Take a look at Getting_started_wetshaving on the wiki, and watch some mantic videos at http://youtube.com/user/mantic59.

[Oblique Human]

Welcome to B&B!

[lordfink]

Have you tried a different shaving cream/ soap? I found the Proraso shaving cream dries my skin very quickly and as a result I ended up with razor burns. I suspect its the menthol causing the issue for my skin.

[AirForceMX]

Astra SP's bro! Not as sharp as a feather, but damn close, and a whole lot smoother! For me at least. Give one a shot!

[Bengal Tiger]

Pics would help us understand what's happening here.

Did you have close shaves with cartridges before?

Is your lather thick and creamy?

Unless you have abnormally tough hair and delicate skin, so far it sounds like there's something off about your technique. The blade should be gliding smoothly across your face and slicing the hairs and not your skin. Are you holding your razor the way Mantic does in his videos? I have tough coarse hair and thankfully also tough skin. What works for me so far are sharper blades with very light pressure.

[Slash McCoy]

Your first shave was good. Subsequent shaves sucked. You tried different blades and prep already. That about sums it up?

Something has changed. Possibly your technique... you should not need a huge shave angle. The shallower, the better. Go back to having the head of the razor pressed against your face and the blade edge not even touching, then rotate until the blade is just touching. It should shave there. Stretch the skin. If no joy, then maybe your razor has gotten damaged somehow. Try finding a nice cheap Tech on ebay. These often go for $5 or less. Or a SuperSpeed, any flavor. They aren't too costly in user grade, generally. See if a different razor fixes your problem.

[Guido]

I proofread my reply and realize I’m babbling. The short reply is it appears I need to practice more with blade angles, and possibly a different soap without menthol.
Thanks to everyone for their advice – I took note of everything said. After a few more tries I’ll update this thread with my results.

*****************************************
Long reply:

Today's shave was the first time it improved! What I did different is tried a new Personna blade (previous blades were Lord and Astra) and used the "Marco method" to make the lather (in a bowl). That helped a lot, because if his method is right, my previous method was definitely not right! It was easier to shave the chin area, but still impossible to go ATG on the neck (and discomforting to go XTG). I don't understand why the blade sounds like it's cutting, but when I run my fingers over the spot immediately after, nothing was cut. Today, at those troublesome spots I did maybe 6-7 passes with marginal results.

I watched most of Mantic's videos, and hold my razor like a "dart" and "spoon" using my shoulder to move it. I also watched a lot of geofatboy videos. Man, the way he shaves going in all directions with multiple passes is impressive. I will pay more attention to blade angle next time, but I just can't find the sweet spot in those areas. Either too shallow and it does nothing, or too steep and it gets caught. This is with XTG or ATG, when going WTG it's seems like I'm always too shallow, no matter what.

By the way, my routing consists of a hot shower where I shampoo my face then let conditioner sit for about 10 minutes. Rinse. I don't towel dry my face. Then lather in a bowl and apply. After applying I start shaving about a minute later. On subsequent passes I don't wait at all after reapplying lather. Then I rinse with hot, then cold. Rub an alum bar (while screaming like my 2 year old), then after a minute rinse and apply ASB ($3 Balea stuff from drugstore - I like it).
My hair is tough (I'm Italian), but I don't think abnormally so. Only time my skin is sensitive is right after a shave for about 20 minutes.

I like the cooling effect of the menthol, but did wonder if it removes moisture. I'd like to try Cella or one of the RR artisan soaps. Or should I try a pre-shave product first? Italian Barber is practically down the street from me, so I can get items pretty quick.

I never used a cartridge before, only electrics. With electrics your beard takes 2-3 shaves before it "gets used" to the cutters and don't tug any more. Is this the same with DE - my beard will eventually get used to it and be more forgiving?

Oh and I'm definitely not rushing - my fastest shave took 40 minutes. My longest was 70. Despite the pain and gore I do enjoy shaving.

Is it possible my long hot showers (>15 min) are actually dehydrating my skin?

Anyway, maybe I'm expecting too much this early and just need more practice.

[mblakele]

Forget about ATG and XTG, or even multiple passes, until you can get a comfortable WTG shave that removes hair. It will not be close, but it must be comfortable. Even if you do not feel clean-shaven, you should be able to touch your skin WTG and feel reasonably smooth. After you can do that two days in a row, you can try adding one XTG pass. Eventually you can add a second XTG pass in a different direction, or try ATG again. Rushing this process is likely to put you back where you are now.

I am not so sure that your face will need to get used to a blade, but your hand will definitely need to learn some new tricks. At this point the most likely problem is blade pressure. Without realizing it, you are probably pressing the blade into your skin as you shave. That alum sting comes from all the raw places where you have scraped your skin with the blade. Instead, try to float the razor so that it cuts hair, but never touches skin. You will not quite succeed, at least at first - but that is the goal. I find my grip to be important here, and Safety Razor Grips may help.

Too much hot water can irritate the skin, setting up a bad shave. So it is worth trying a shorter, less hot shower, or even shaving before the shower. Make sure your prep is good enough: if you do not shower first, make sure your stubble is well-hydrated before you start shaving. Here is a good summary of that process:

[RobAtSGH]

I never used a cartridge before, only electrics. With electrics your beard takes 2-3 shaves before it "gets used" to the cutters and don't tug any more. Is this the same with DE - my beard will eventually get used to it and be more forgiving?

...

Is it possible my long hot showers (>15 min) are actually dehydrating my skin?

I don't find Proraso drying, and it's actually a very good beginner's cream. Very forgiving, and lathers easily. Newbie problems are almost universally pilot error, and not the fault of the products used.

First, make sure you have a good, slick lather. Wet shaving is so called because the object is to get plenty of water into the beard. The cream/soap is just there to hold it in place and provide lubrication for the razor to slide over the skin. Brush some lather on your hand and close it into a loose fist. Then open it. If the lather pulls away from your skin, leaving dry spots, it doesn't have enough water. If it's runny, with big bubbles, you need more product in proportion to that amount of water.

If you're getting chatter (skipping) of the razor even with no pressure, then it's likely your shaving angle is too steep and you're scraping the blade across the skin. Unfortunately, if you've only used an electric before, this is going to be the hardest thing to learn. You say your cheeks are good - that's expected since they're mostly flat surfaces while your throat and jawline aren't. The skill you must develop is to pay close attention to the angle you use on the wide flat areas, and replicate that as you go over the curvy bits. And that, honestly, just takes a lot of practice if you've never even used a blade before. You might find it easier to do if you tilt your head back and/or to the side to flatten out some of the neck/jaw area.

So, I wouldn't change your razor, blade, or cream. I would practice making lather of proper consistency (not stiff and sticky, not bubbly and runny, but moist and slick). I would also practice paying attention to the angle at which the head of the razor changes as you move from cheek to jaw to neck - using shorter strokes. You might also want to do two WTG passes before going XTG, and skipping ATG for now. As your technique gets better, change up your passes accordingly.

And, in response to your hot water question - yes! Extended hot showers can actually dry out your skin badly, especially on the face. Turn down the hot water tap, and save some money as well as your skin.

[Guido]

Excellent advice here! Now I'm stoked to put my newfound knowledge into action.
Now if only I can speed up my growth so I don't have to wait so long between trials. LOL (I can't believe I said that - I used to dread shaving, and it wasn't even painful!)

[vitalMyth]

sounds like your lather may be sticky rather than slippery and lubricious. practice getting your lather a little thinner and more slippery, it should be one of the slickest things you've ever felt, not sticky in even the slightest degree.

[ThePatrician]

There's a lot of great advice in here, especially regarding Mantic's excellent videos on the Youtubes. One thing that I like to do on the weekends is a hot-towel application. This isn't really practical during the week, but for me it's a special treat on Saturdays: after applying your first lather, take a washcloth or, if you're a high roller, a barber's towel, pour hot water over, and drape it over your face with the lather still on. Leave it on for a minute before wiping the first lather off your face. Relather, then shave.

As others have said it sounds as though blade pressure is your biggest area of difficulty. It generally takes anywhere between four and six weeks to break a bad habit, but fortunately with you coming from an electric there aren't any bad habits to break, only good habits to learn. Proraso is a very forgiving soap: the lather builds easily with however much water you feel like throwing into it. I'm not a menthol and eucalyptus fan, so it didn't cut the mustard for me, but it works great for a lot of people. If the menthol is burning you try RazoRock, for the cost you won't find a better soap anywhere (except maybe ARKO! Can I get an AMEN!).

What I sometimes do when I'm bored is go into the Shave Cave and just practice building lather. That might be a good idea for you, so you can find out where the sweet spot is, how much time it will take, how much water to add, etc.

Mblakele also gave you an outstanding gem that I will repeat. For now, forget about XTG and ATG, just focus on WTG. Practice your blade angle and not applying pressure. Don't go for BBS (baby-butt smooth), just go for CCS (close comfortable shave). One good solid pass should be enough with proper blade angle and no pressure. Remember: the goal isn't to take everything off with one pass, it's to slowly take it down a bit at a time. Bearing this in mind will help you to not press the razor against your face as hard as you can. If it's a little rough brushing against the grain that's fine, as long as it feels okay going in the direction of your latest pass. For now, WTG is totally fine. Once you feel that you're getting solid and comfortable results with WTG with only one pass, then you can add a XTG.

[Neil B]

Not sure I'm actually going to help as such here, except to say being 2-3 months into the journey I can empathise with what you are saying, I experienced similar though not to the same extent by the sounds. I've managed to avoid bloodshed but to start had awful problems getting a decent shave around my chin and under my jawline. The one thing that has helped me more than anything else is time, see said I was helpful :)

I have improved over the weeks without really knowing how or what I'm doing different, other than the fact I think I am learning my face, my razor and my hairgrowth. Much of my face now is done with what I would regard as something akin to muscle memory, I know how to shave that area and it just happens now without thought. The only area I really struggle with now is the bottom of my throat where my beard starts, still working on that one, the rest now is fine, comfortable and presentable.

One thing I did learn along the way, if I don't get a decent cut wtg, I'm sure as hell not going to get one atg, it just makes more of a mess. Oh yeah, shaving under my right ear took me a while to get right too, being right handed I couldn't see what I was doing lol

In short, stick with it, aim for something that is tidy rather than perfect and quite quickly you will find that there are far fewer problem areas, probably without even knowing why, at least that has been my experience.

[gus1942]

Astra SP's bro! Not as sharp as a feather, but damn close, and a whole lot smoother! For me at least. Give one a shot!

+1

[Whilliam]

What I sometimes do when I'm bored is go into the Shave Cave and just practice building lather. That might be a good idea for you, so you can find out where the sweet spot is, how much time it will take, how much water to add, etc.

Absolutely killer advice. Whip it 'til you get it right.

And welcome to B&B.

[Sledgehammer39]

Welcome Aboard!! Take a look at Mantic59 on youtube, great tutorials on the DE shave.

[Guido]

I just spent 70 minutes shaving. I was taking my time focusing on lather and blade angle. It went terrible. LOL

A lot less bloodshed and irritation, but the results look very uneven. I did 2 WTG and I know it's not recommended but I had to do 1 XTG on my neck to make it look semi presentable.
I begin with the razor handle perpendicular to the skin, then tilt it until I hear/feel the blade working. Takes forever, but it doesn't cut me. Any further from perpendicular and it catches the hairs. At the end of my shave I'm thinking I'm moving the blade too slow. I'll speed it up next time.
Lathering is difficult - I watched many videos and read a lot of tips, but it's not easy when I have no frame of reference. I've never seen lather up close besides my own. Mine "looks" just like the videos, but I'm sure up close it's different. And it feels exactly as expected; like slick wet soap. But is it slick and wet enough? No clue, the videos don't help there.

Anyway, this was just an update in case anyone was wondering. I know all I need is a lot of practice. I'm still having fun, I just hope my patience doesn't wear off.