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Gillette Company History Geek Out

Thanks for the link. I am trying to find time to read it, although calameo may be the worst online reading interface I have ever experienced.

Meanwhile I want to address the "regurgitated from the Blade" comment. The Gillette Blade is cited frequently, I agree. That is because it is a primary source. It contains articles where the author had direct and personal knowledge of the events described. Secondary and tertiary sources are less reliable, generally speaking. They are written by folks who talked to a primary source, or read a primary source, and then interpreted what they learned. Everyone has played "telephone", right? Errors creep in, and biases.

To be fair, a really good secondary source can consult multiple primary sources, reconciling any conflicts, and thus produce an even stronger record than any one primary source. Essentially that is what we are trying to do with the historical bits of the wiki. But for this to be credible, the secondary source has to footnote primary sources. This allows later readers to read the primary sources, understand what the conflicts were, and form their own opinions about the resolution.

So where does Gillette Company 75 Years stand? It is a secondary source. As far as I see it cites no sources at all, of any kind. So we cannot trace any of its claims back to anyone who was on the spot and in a position to observe. This is unfortunate, and means we cannot reconcile conflicts with a known primary source - such as the articles in the Gillette Blade.

Anyway, this is why I am so hung up on sources like the Blade, and in particular on Nickerson and his 50 sets shipped 1904-01-01. He was the man, and he was on the spot. As far as I know he is the only primary source we have, as much as I would like to have more sources to draw on. But if I have a primary source, and someone tells me a story that conflicts with that primary source, my inclination is to trust the primary source. That even applies to a Gillette company history, since it was written 75 years later – and probably by the marketing department at that.
 
Well put on "The Blade" interpretation.

Unless they are both right, meaning they sold 50 sets in 1904 and shipped them in January of 1905, it was Jan 1st so.... The ad was out and things were in motion in 1903 you would think they sold some along with the samples they gave out but Nickerson is pretty clear that 1903 was more of samples and trials.

Thanks for the link. I am trying to find time to read it, although calameo may be the worst online reading interface I have ever experienced.

Meanwhile I want to address the "regurgitated from the Blade" comment. The Gillette Blade is cited frequently, I agree. That is because it is a primary source. It contains articles where the author had direct and personal knowledge of the events described. Secondary and tertiary sources are less reliable, generally speaking. They are written by folks who talked to a primary source, or read a primary source, and then interpreted what they learned. Everyone has played "telephone", right? Errors creep in, and biases.

To be fair, a really good secondary source can consult multiple primary sources, reconciling any conflicts, and thus produce an even stronger record than any one primary source. Essentially that is what we are trying to do with the historical bits of the wiki. But for this to be credible, the secondary source has to footnote primary sources. This allows later readers to read the primary sources, understand what the conflicts were, and form their own opinions about the resolution.

So where does Gillette Company 75 Years stand? It is a secondary source. As far as I see it cites no sources at all, of any kind. So we cannot trace any of its claims back to anyone who was on the spot and in a position to observe. This is unfortunate, and means we cannot reconcile conflicts with a known primary source - such as the articles in the Gillette Blade.

Anyway, this is why I am so hung up on sources like the Blade, and in particular on Nickerson and his 50 sets shipped 1904-01-01. He was the man, and he was on the spot. As far as I know he is the only primary source we have, as much as I would like to have more sources to draw on. But if I have a primary source, and someone tells me a story that conflicts with that primary source, my inclination is to trust the primary source. That even applies to a Gillette company history, since it was written 75 years later – and probably by the marketing department at that.
 
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This book also says they dropped the 20 razor blades to 12 in 1903.

This seems like a misreading of that text. Here's what it says to spare anyone else that dreadful Calameo interface:

Production finally started early in 1903 after Nickerson completed the second blade sharpening machine.

The Company named a Chicago group, Townsend & Hunt, as its sales agent and established the price of a razor set, including 20 blades, at $5. A package of 20 blades, soon reduced to a more profitable 12 blades, cost $1.

FWIW, this book has also been posted in RazorArchive.com's "Print" section this whole time, if folks would rather read it there.

Anyway, back to the blade counts. We know that they were still doing 20-blade packs into 1904 from the advertising record. In Volume 5 of System, for instance, which covers January - June of 1904, it's not until the June issue, the very last of five Gillette ads placed in those issues (they appear to have skipped February for some reason), that you see it change from 20 to 12:

 
It continues on Chronologically in 1903 which is why I say that but sure "soon" could be next year I suppose. so many questions I want answered today would have been pointless for them to document at the time I suppose.

In 100 years Will anyone want to know when the first vibrating sensor handle was introduced and what was the original packaging and razor color. Seems silly now.

This seems like a misreading of that text. Here's what it says to spare anyone else that dreadful Calameo interface:
Production finally started early in 1903 after Nickerson completed the second blade sharpening machine.

The Company named a Chicago group, Townsend & Hunt, as its sales agent and established the price of a razor set, including 20 blades, at $5. A package of 20 blades, soon reduced to a more profitable 12 blades, cost $1.
 
It continues on Chronologically in 1903 which is why I say that but sure "soon" could be next year I suppose. so many questions I want answered today would have been pointless for them to document at the time I suppose.

In 100 years Will anyone want to know when the first vibrating sensor handle was introduced and what was the original packaging and razor color. Seems silly now.
They may not want to know because it was well documented and advertised so there wont be any mysteries or unknown important facts that exist from Gillette vintage razors. In the beginning 1900's, some important or even minor details were left out in manufacturing and product details and that is why you and most of us are curious now.
 
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Thanks for the link. I am trying to find time to read it, although calameo may be the worst online reading interface I have ever experienced.

Meanwhile I want to address the "regurgitated from the Blade" comment. The Gillette Blade is cited frequently, I agree. That is because it is a primary source. It contains articles where the author had direct and personal knowledge of the events described. Secondary and tertiary sources are less reliable, generally speaking. They are written by folks who talked to a primary source, or read a primary source, and then interpreted what they learned. Everyone has played "telephone", right? Errors creep in, and biases.

To be fair, a really good secondary source can consult multiple primary sources, reconciling any conflicts, and thus produce an even stronger record than any one primary source. Essentially that is what we are trying to do with the historical bits of the wiki. But for this to be credible, the secondary source has to footnote primary sources. This allows later readers to read the primary sources, understand what the conflicts were, and form their own opinions about the resolution.

So where does Gillette Company 75 Years stand? It is a secondary source. As far as I see it cites no sources at all, of any kind. So we cannot trace any of its claims back to anyone who was on the spot and in a position to observe. This is unfortunate, and means we cannot reconcile conflicts with a known primary source - such as the articles in the Gillette Blade.

Anyway, this is why I am so hung up on sources like the Blade, and in particular on Nickerson and his 50 sets shipped 1904-01-01. He was the man, and he was on the spot. As far as I know he is the only primary source we have, as much as I would like to have more sources to draw on. But if I have a primary source, and someone tells me a story that conflicts with that primary source, my inclination is to trust the primary source. That even applies to a Gillette company history, since it was written 75 years later – and probably by the marketing department at that.
So would it be safe to quote or footnote this book or source on the timeline? I have many dates and events to input but after reading some of this book it does have some relevant facts that seem to be accurate.....not sure about the section on the international manufacturing factories. There seem to be alot and the dates when first open is posted too, that can be very beneficial. I never knew there were factories in Philippines, Malaysia, Jamaica, Indonesia, Morocco, Ireland. This is very good timeline info if its accurately sourced and verified.
 
So would it be safe to quote or footnote this book or source on the timeline? I have many dates and events to input but after reading some of this book it does have some relevant facts that seem to be accurate.....not sure about the section on the international manufacturing factories. There seem to be alot and the dates when first open is posted too, that can be very beneficial. I never knew there were factories in Philippines, Malaysia, Jamaica, Indonesia, Morocco, Ireland. This is very good timeline info if its accurately sourced and verified.

I would post things like that here first, and we can see whether we can find confirmation for them anywhere first. That way we can do a bit of vetting before we just dump anything and everything into the wiki.
 
This seems like a misreading of that text. Here's what it says to spare anyone else that dreadful Calameo interface:
Production finally started early in 1903 after Nickerson completed the second blade sharpening machine.

The Company named a Chicago group, Townsend & Hunt, as its sales agent and established the price of a razor set, including 20 blades, at $5. A package of 20 blades, soon reduced to a more profitable 12 blades, cost $1.

FWIW, this book has also been posted in RazorArchive.com's "Print" section this whole time, if folks would rather read it there.

Anyway, back to the blade counts. We know that they were still doing 20-blade packs into 1904 from the advertising record. In Volume 5 of System, for instance, which covers January - June of 1904, it's not until the June issue, the very last of five Gillette ads placed in those issues (they appear to have skipped February for some reason), that you see it change from 20 to 12:

Joyce pressured Nickerson to finish the machine. In mid April Joyce added an additional $8,500 dollars and Nickeson finished the sharpening machine. He made sample razors and blades that the promoters passed out to freinds for try outs.

Now was time to set a price point for sale, Joyce and the directors decided at $1.00 per package of 20 blade but they had a price issue for the razor. So they made up a commitee of Joyce, Heilborn, and Nickerson to decide the price of $3.00 fr the razor. However Joyce changed his mind and went with 5 dollars. [The directors thought it was too high but Joyce had final say.]

The production moved closer to market and in july 1903 gillette signed the newly formed Townsend and Hunt ( Chicago sales comapny) which bought 50,000 razor sets/ the razor plus 20 blades by october 1904, and to guarantee the purchase of 100,000 sets a year for 4 years.

In October they put a Ad in the System magazine which advetised the razor and asked to send 5 dollars to Townsend and hunt which address was the same as the System magazine [ that is because George Townsend was private secratary to the editor who allowed Townsend to do the Gillette side business]. As Gillette profits came in Townsend decided to quit the System magazine and concentrate on Gillette. To avoid confusion they Townsend and Hunt became Gillette sales company. 3 years later they sold out to the parent corporation for 300,000 dollars.

The sales were not great in 1903, only 51 razors sold , but Joyce still had optimism that the public was willing to pay 5 dollars for the handle/razor. In 1904 Joyce decide to continue the sell of the blades at 1 dollar per package but reduce the amount from 20 to 12 blades per package [an increase of 40% profit]


At this time King Gillette decided to resign as president [ due to Joyce not wanting to give him a salary] . Joyce hired Ward Holloway as the new president of the company.....In the meantime, King Gillette was given a promotion at Crown Cork and Seal in England to manage and move there. So he decided to pack up and move with his family. At this time he lost his original drawings of the 1st model razor that he made.
 
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I think "bought" is not the best word as that would indicate a sale within the company to Townshend.

From "The Blade"

On July 2nd, 1903, a Directors' Meeting was called to discuss an agreement which was about to be made with Messrs. Townsend and Hunt of Chicago, with whom nego tiations were pending to take over the marketing of our product in the United States. The agreement with this firm was carried through and they became, although an indepen dent concern, our sole sales agents in this country for a number of years, until the Gillette Company very wise ly bought them out in 1908, though paying for their interests a very siz able figure. In the original agreement with Townsend and Hunt they pledged themselves to take, between certain dates, a specified number of razors. As a matter of fact they had no difficulty in finding customers for them. It is rather amusing in these days, to read what they agreed to dispose of. The contract was made in July and they were to take before Nov. 1st, 500 sets; before Dec. 1st, 1500 sets; before Jan. 1st, 1904, 3000 sets; be fore Feb. 1st, 5000 sets, and so on, the total number for fifteen months being 50,000 sets. These figures look small now, but they looked large at that time.

So I guess they had a lot of sets well before January 1st of 1904 and the first commercial shipment being in January. Is it likely Chicago handled 51 direct mail order ad sales in 1903 of 51 sets and then in Jan 1 1904 it was the first bulk sale of 50 sets?

Joyce pressured Nickerson to finish the machine. In mid April Joyce added an additional $8,500 dollars and Nickeson finshed the sharpening machine. He gave out samples for freinds to tyr out. the 2nd sharping machine the machine, and by mid april it was done. He made sample razors and blades that the promoters passed out to freinds for try outs.

Now was time to set a price point for sale, Joyce and the directors decided at $1.00 per package of 20 blade but they had a price issue for the razor. So they made up a commitee of Joyce, Heilborn, and Nickerson to decide the price of $3.00 fr the razor. However Joyce changed his mind and went with 5 dollars. [The directors thought it was too high but Joyce had final say.]

The production moved closer to market and in july 1903 gillette signed the newly formed Townsend and Hunt ( Chicago sales comapny) which bought 50,000 razor sets/ the razor plus 20 blades by october 1904, and to guarantee the purchase of 100,000 sets a year for 4 years.

In October they put a Ad in the System magazine which advetised the razor and asked to send 5 dollars to Townsend and hunt which address was the same as the System magazine [ that is because George Townsend was private secratary to the editor who allowed Townsend to do the Gillette side business]. As Gillette profits came in Townsend decided to quit the System magazine and concentrate on Gillette. To avoid confusion they Townsend and Hunt became Gillette sales company. 3 years later they sold out to the parent corporation for 300,000 dollars.

The sales were not great in 1903, only 51 razors sold , but Joyce still had optimism that the public was willing to pay 5 dollars for the handle/razor. In 1904 Joyce decide to continue the sell of the blades at 1 dollar per package but reduce the amount from 20 to 12 blades per package [an increase of 40% profit]


At this time King Gillette decided to resign as president [ due to Joyce not wanting to give him a salary] . Joyce hired Ward Holloway as the new president of the company.....In the meantime, King Gillette was given a promotion at Crown Cork and Seal in England to manage and move there. So he decided to pack up and move with his family. At this time he lost his original drawings of the 1st model razor that he made.
 
I think "bought" is not the best word as that would indicate a sale within the company to Townshend.

From "The Blade"

On July 2nd, 1903, a Directors' Meeting was called to discuss an agreement which was about to be made with Messrs. Townsend and Hunt of Chicago, with whom nego tiations were pending to take over the marketing of our product in the United States. The agreement with this firm was carried through and they became, although an indepen dent concern, our sole sales agents in this country for a number of years, until the Gillette Company very wise ly bought them out in 1908, though paying for their interests a very siz able figure. In the original agreement with Townsend and Hunt they pledged themselves to take, between certain dates, a specified number of razors. As a matter of fact they had no difficulty in finding customers for them. It is rather amusing in these days, to read what they agreed to dispose of. The contract was made in July and they were to take before Nov. 1st, 500 sets; before Dec. 1st, 1500 sets; before Jan. 1st, 1904, 3000 sets; be fore Feb. 1st, 5000 sets, and so on, the total number for fifteen months being 50,000 sets. These figures look small now, but they looked large at that time.

So I guess they had a lot of sets well before January 1st of 1904 and the first commercial shipment being in January. Is it likely Chicago handled 51 direct mail order ad sales in 1903 of 51 sets and then in Jan 1 1904 it was the first bulk sale of 50 sets?

The boys in Chicago agreed to take X number of razors, but that does not mean they received any. Given the production problems Nickerson describes, likely those 50 razors on 1 January 1904 were the very first razors shipped to Chicago for commercial sale. We hear of a total of 51 sets sold in 1903: probably sloppy accounting for those 50.

By the way I reformatted the "75 Years" book as a single PDF. It is quite large, but much easier to navigate: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t54th1s3mzuq8af/Gillette75Years-1977.pdf.
 
Now was time to set a price point for sale, Joyce and the directors decided at $1.00 per package of 20 blade but they had a price issue for the razor. So they made up a commitee of Joyce, Heilborn, and Nickerson to decide the price of $3.00 fr the razor. However Joyce changed his mind and went with 5 dollars. [The directors thought it was too high but Joyce had final say.]

Nickerson's account of this particular event is slightly different. According to him it wasn't so much that Joyce straight-up overruled everyone else, but rather that he put his money where his mouth was, which strikes me as a bit more his style from what I've read of him:

Later on, however, Mr. Joyce took the position that the razor was worth $5.00 to a user, and that people would pay that price for it. The rest of the directors were startled, not to say frightened, at this proposition. As a matter of fact, none of us really knew what the price should be, because we did not know what the razor would cost to make and sell. But Mr Joyce said: "if you don't believe that the razor will sell for $5.00, I will prove it to you, for I am willing to contract for all you can make at $2.50." That settled it, and the razor afterward went on the market at the higher figure.​
 
I am sure they got some - 2 reasons:

1. It says "As a matter of fact they had no trouble finding customers for them"

2. I have seen an early tin with a Chicago labeled instruction paper glued to the inside top of the tin cover. (pre ribbon cases)

The boys in Chicago agreed to take X number of razors, but that does not mean they received any. Given the production problems Nickerson describes, likely those 50 razors on 1 January 1904 were the very first razors shipped to Chicago for commercial sale. We hear of a total of 51 sets sold in 1903: probably sloppy accounting for those 50.

By the way I reformatted the "75 Years" book as a single PDF. It is quite large, but much easier to navigate: https://www.dropbox.com/s/t54th1s3mzuq8af/Gillette75Years-1977.pdf.
 
I am sure they got some - 2 reasons:

1. It says "As a matter of fact they had no trouble finding customers for them"

2. I have seen an early tin with a Chicago labeled instruction paper glued to the inside top of the tin cover. (pre ribbon cases)

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but on number 1, I think what mblakele was getting at was that it may have been more of a supply problem than a demand problem. It's possible that they had a product that they were satisfied with as a review sample but didn't think it was commercial ready.

And on number 2, what about that makes you think that had to be 1903 and not early 1904?

Again, not saying you're wrong; I'm just not convinced it's definitive.
 
I said some not all :) I can't say they got all they agreed too but the first 1903 advertisement requested mail orders be sent to Chicago and why would one place an add without any confirmation of some product ready to go? It makes sense to me that 51 sets were sold and paid for in 1903 and the first bulk commercial shipment was in January 1904 but of course only a theory. I know Nickerson is clear 1903 was testing and trials and it does read like he thinks the first models ready for sale were 1904 but the ad and Chicago being set up etc. etc. makes me question it but he is I admit a better resource than just using logic I suppose. Brown's (Nickerson assistant) and Nickerson's kept diaries and finding those could answer a lot.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but on number 1, I think what mblakele was getting at was that it may have been more of a supply problem than a demand problem. It's possible that they had a product that they were satisfied with as a review sample but didn't think it was commercial ready.

And on number 2, what about that makes you think that had to be 1903 and not early 1904?

Again, not saying you're wrong; I'm just not convinced it's definitive.
 
Nickerson's account of this particular event is slightly different. According to him it wasn't so much that Joyce straight-up overruled everyone else, but rather that he put his money where his mouth was, which strikes me as a bit more his style from what I've read of him:
Later on, however, Mr. Joyce took the position that the razor was worth $5.00 to a user, and that people would pay that price for it. The rest of the directors were startled, not to say frightened, at this proposition. As a matter of fact, none of us really knew what the price should be, because we did not know what the razor would cost to make and sell. But Mr Joyce said: "if you don't believe that the razor will sell for $5.00, I will prove it to you, for I am willing to contract for all you can make at $2.50." That settled it, and the razor afterward went on the market at the higher figure.​
Yes, Joyce had the money to do it too, he stated that he would also buy them at $2.50 for himself and sell the razors at $5.00 and keep the the $2.50 profits, that is how sure he was of the 5 dollar selling point.....who could disagree ( he was the Donald Trump of the shaving world)
 
I think "bought" is not the best word as that would indicate a sale within the company to Townshend.

From "The Blade"

On July 2nd, 1903, a Directors' Meeting was called to discuss an agreement which was about to be made with Messrs. Townsend and Hunt of Chicago, with whom nego tiations were pending to take over the marketing of our product in the United States. The agreement with this firm was carried through and they became, although an indepen dent concern, our sole sales agents in this country for a number of years, until the Gillette Company very wise ly bought them out in 1908, though paying for their interests a very siz able figure. In the original agreement with Townsend and Hunt they pledged themselves to take, between certain dates, a specified number of razors. As a matter of fact they had no difficulty in finding customers for them. It is rather amusing in these days, to read what they agreed to dispose of. The contract was made in July and they were to take before Nov. 1st, 500 sets; before Dec. 1st, 1500 sets; before Jan. 1st, 1904, 3000 sets; be fore Feb. 1st, 5000 sets, and so on, the total number for fifteen months being 50,000 sets. These figures look small now, but they looked large at that time.

So I guess they had a lot of sets well before January 1st of 1904 and the first commercial shipment being in January. Is it likely Chicago handled 51 direct mail order ad sales in 1903 of 51 sets and then in Jan 1 1904 it was the first bulk sale of 50 sets?
I got that exact words "which agreed to buy 50,000 razors sets-the handle plus 20 razor blades by October 1904, from the Russell Adams book, " The man and his wonderful shaving device" page 46 Chpt#2
 
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but on number 1, I think what mblakele was getting at was that it may have been more of a supply problem than a demand problem. It's possible that they had a product that they were satisfied with as a review sample but didn't think it was commercial ready.

And on number 2, what about that makes you think that had to be 1903 and not early 1904?

Again, not saying you're wrong; I'm just not convinced it's definitive.
Well it says by the end of 1903 the company had sold a miniscule 51 razors, but what was important was that people were buying them at 5 dollars.
 
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