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Thread: Student crisis in Quebec

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc4 View Post
    Imagine if everyone had to pay a few thousand dollars a year for highschool ... or all school after kindergarten ... or ???
    Depending on where you live, you probably do. Down here, we call it real estate taxes.

    If I told you the number I pay, you would rush out to your car, drive down here, and punch me in the face.

  2. #22
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    Aw heck, you don't have to tell me numbers for me to make a road trip.
    Be there or be square. Only I can do both!

    "My lord, I will use them according to their desert."

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nils View Post
    University in Germany was free until a couple of years ago when tuition fees were introduced. Those proved to be massively unpopular, and most states have by now scrapped them or are in the process of doing so. Here in Bavaria, it costs about 700 Euros per semester, but there are signs that the fee will be history in the not too distant future.
    I believe it was a few hundred Euros at the Universitšt Mannheim, where I studied abroad last semester. It is certainly a lot cheaper than in the US.
    Matthew | QueenCharlotteSoaps.com - Handmade hand & body soap, shampoo bars, tallow shaving cream and soap, aftershave balm, and much more

  4. #24
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    Interesting topic.

    The question is how your schools are funded.

    In California 51% of the Budget goes to Education and 80% of the Bugdet goes to salaries, health care and retirement funding.

    In the 1950s and 1960s the Dream was to have Free College Education for all.

    But that Dream is Dead.

    We now have Teacher Unions and Contracts that guarantee that they get paid first out of the budget.

    The retirement system for Teachers (STRS) and for the government employees (CalPers) has a contract with California that if they do not have enough retirement money to pay out with their investments that California will take the money out from the California General Fund.

    We have lots of taxes that support the general fund but, it is not enough.

    So College Tuitions are going up.

    Teacher Salaries and Administration Salaries will go up.

    So the only way to do that is through additional taxes and increases in College Tuitions.

    The Unions only support those in Government that support them.

    So what do you think will happen to taxes in California?

    And what do you think will happen to Businesses in California?

    And what do you think will happen to Jobs in California?

    We will see after this election cycle!
    BOTOC - :)

  5. #25

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    There were no tuition fees here in England when I went to university. In fact I (like many people) was effectively paid to go, by receiving a grant.
    It almost makes me cry that today's students are being tricked into starting their adult life with a massive debt. Student loan or not, it is hanging over them like the Sword of Damocles. It seems our government thinks that forcing them into wage-slavery from the start is more important than having an educated population. At the risk of offending people, I think it's incredibly foolish to go to university under these conditions unless you have a very clear career plan and a degree is mandatory for the job.
    This is one area where the Scottish are doing it right (still no tuition fees there for their own people.)
    Ray.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Rasier User View Post
    Interesting topic. The question is how your schools are funded. In California 51% of the Budget goes to Education and 80% of the Bugdet goes to salaries, health care and retirement funding. In the 1950s and 1960s the Dream was to have Free College Education for all. But that Dream is Dead. We now have Teacher Unions and Contracts that guarantee that they get paid first out of the budget. The retirement system for Teachers (STRS) and for the government employees (CalPers) has a contract with California that if they do not have enough retirement money to pay out with their investments that California will take the money out from the California General Fund. We have lots of taxes that support the general fund but, it is not enough. So College Tuitions are going up. Teacher Salaries and Administration Salaries will go up. So the only way to do that is through additional taxes and increases in College Tuitions. The Unions only support those in Government that support them. So what do you think will happen to taxes in California? And what do you think will happen to Businesses in California? And what do you think will happen to Jobs in California? We will see after this election cycle!
    How bout some statistics to back your claims up?
    "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire

  7. #27
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    This thread is devolving faster than even I expected.


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  8. #28
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    Run for it ...

    Be there or be square. Only I can do both!

    "My lord, I will use them according to their desert."

    "God's bodykins, man, much better: use every man
    after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?"

    Veteran of the Great Irisch Moos Campaign of 2008-09

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Rasier User View Post
    Interesting topic.

    The question is how your schools are funded.

    ...
    If I were running things, education would be first priority in state government spending and the federal government would be spending much, much more on education than it is now. The greatest thing this country did after WWII was to fund the GI Bill, which provided higher education to an entire generation of men, almost. It might have been an easy sell to the taxpayers because it was couched in terms of military or veterans' spending, but with an almost universal male draft it meant almost universal male education benefits. And the country prospered for decades because of it.

    As for salaries and benefits, taxpayers--through their representatives--made promises to teachers and professors. Now we want to blame the teachers and professors for government spending or to renege on our promises? Or should we try to hire the worst people available for those positions by driving away competent personnel with low wages and benefits?
    __________________________________ I love the smell of Proraso in the morning!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Rasier User View Post
    Interesting topic.

    The question is how your schools are funded.

    In California 51% of the Budget goes to Education and 80% of the Bugdet goes to salaries, health care and retirement funding.

    In the 1950s and 1960s the Dream was to have Free College Education for all.

    But that Dream is Dead.

    We now have Teacher Unions and Contracts that guarantee that they get paid first out of the budget.

    The retirement system for Teachers (STRS) and for the government employees (CalPers) has a contract with California that if they do not have enough retirement money to pay out with their investments that California will take the money out from the California General Fund.

    We have lots of taxes that support the general fund but, it is not enough.

    So College Tuitions are going up.

    Teacher Salaries and Administration Salaries will go up.

    So the only way to do that is through additional taxes and increases in College Tuitions.

    The Unions only support those in Government that support them.

    So what do you think will happen to taxes in California?

    And what do you think will happen to Businesses in California?

    And what do you think will happen to Jobs in California?

    We will see after this election cycle!
    Oh, how easy it is to blame teachers and their unions. You know, because putting in the time and money to get a 4 year degree, and then spending another full year earning a teaching credential in order to get a job where the starting salary is $42,000 with no benefits and no respect is such a sweet deal. Please stop spreading this propaganda. Teachers are getting laid off left and right in California and wages are stagnant for those in the profession. Reality check buddy.

  11. #31
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    Easy there, Matt. A simple "I totally disagree" will suffice.

    I too totally disagree with SRU. I believe that demonising Unions is a sure-fire way to destroy the rights of the vast majority of the workforce. Ensuring you get paid surely cannot be seen to be unreasonable? And is it merely co-incidence that the period of greatest prosperity for the majority was one in which unions were most powerful? I don't think so.

    I love teaching, but I would never do it in The UK. The salary isn't awful, though not great, but the balance of power has swung so far to the pupils that the few teachers I know feel lucky if they have a class they can actually teach, rather than simply having a shouting match every lesson. Legislation and guidelines are also in place which disempower teachers and make them in fact, guilty until proven innocent in cases of conflict. I feel the power of the classroom to shape individuals' ideas and standards of behaviour is so badly underestimated and the knock-on effect of those who believe that no matter what happens, it's never the child's fault (Don't study? Teacher must be boring. Behave badly? Teacher can't control class. Fail exams? Teacher not doing the job right. Bring a knife to school? Teacher isn't a sufficient role-model) is an entire generation of people who loudly insist upon their rights being upheld, without a thought to their own responsibilities.
    The recent massive (and beneficial) influx of Polish people to the UK really showed many Brits to be lazy and/or stupid- a vanishingly small number of Poles were unemployed, they commited little crime and they worked hard.....all in a country supposedly without jobs and riven with crime.

  12. #32
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    I support the Quebec protesters because I've experienced and am still witnessing the commodification of the "university experience." I hear a lot of opinions in my area that they shouldn't be complaining because the tuition in Quebec is lower than other areas of Canada. I'm happy to see students fighting against the soaring cost of education rather then being complacent to the educational system that is currently, in my opinion and experience, becoming more expensive for a lower quality education because the universities are more interested in selling the experience of going to university to more and more students rather than the quality of education. I think that we as a society have placed too much prestige on university degrees.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaRobot View Post
    ...universities are more interested in selling the experience of going to university to more and more students rather than the quality of education. I think that we as a society have placed too much prestige on university degrees.
    Very good analysis. I too believe this is happening in America. It is all about the "college experience" for many young people rather than the education We have indeed become a highly credentialized society which has the potential to disenfranchise very smart and motivated individuals because they simply cannot afford college.

  14. #34

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    Another issue that goes hand in hand with the college tuition problem is that salaries in a lot of positions where a degree is required are so low that a college grad can't live. My wife works for a branch of state government where many of the positions require a four year degree, and the salary is in the neighborhood $22,000 - $24,000. To require a four year degree for a job that pays in the low twenties is utterly ridiculous.

    It would be okay if these salaries were truly "starting" salaries, but the reality for all too many people is that their starting salary is the same money they can expect to make at the end of their career. Those state government positions where my wife works will never make a dime more than what they earn today. If anything, with inflation they will actually make less over the course of their careers.

    I've maintained for a long time that college is a sucker bet for a whole lot of people, and that I suspect they would be better off getting a trade license. I see nothing coming along the horizon that will make me change my opinion.
    This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps!

  15. #35
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    From MacLeans magazine comes the most recent update and anlysis of events in an article entitled From Quiet Revolution to Not-so-Quiet Riot:

    http://oncampus.macleans.ca/educatio...so-quiet-riot/
    VdH Luxury, Speick, C.O. Bigelow, Cella, Edwin Jagger.

  16. #36
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    Some very interesting opinions out here!
    "If you want a thing done well, do it yourself." -Napoleon Bonaparte

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight Rasier User View Post
    The question is how your schools are funded.

    In California 51% of the Budget goes to Education and 80% of the Bugdet goes to salaries, health care and retirement funding.
    Why, that's 131% right there. No wonder they're screwed.

  18. #38

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    The associate's degree should be more popular than it is. If programs are structured well enough, then you could almost get as much out of an Associate's degree as you could a Bachelor's. The Bachelor's includes a lot of general education classes that might not pertain too much to your major. I think high school should perhaps pick up the slack a bit and have more intensive classes so that students going into college can skip a lot of the general ed classes. I guess that's the way it is going in some schools. My nephew, I think, took some of his general ed college classes while he was still in high school, and the classes counted for both high school and college requirements. Now he's studying to be a dentist. The program is a 6 or 7 year program where some of the upper division pre-dental classes not only count towards his Bachelor's but also towards the dental doctorate -- like the anatomy classes, biochem, etc..
    Last edited by jd_1138; 05-15-2012 at 01:44 PM.

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