Futur/HD comparisons

[AJS]

I was wondering if anyone had any idea as to what setting on the Merkur Futur was the equivalent of the blade exposure on the HD. The reason I ask is because I started out with the Futur, and ordered the HD sometime later. After learning with the Futur, the HD looked like something you would find in a Christmas cracker, too small and too fiddly. This week, however, I made a concerted effort to learn how to use the HD, it's coming along, but it's still a little too lightweight for me. Today I decided to go with the futur on a setting of 4, and I tore my face to shreds, every stroke burned and I opened up a HUGE weeping gash on my neck. I had always managed quite nicely (aside from my improper prep) this way, yet today the Futur seemed big and unwieldy. Is it really possible for my muscle memory to have 'forgotten' how to use the futur so quickly? There is a post on SMF about razor fidelity, the author claiming to have better results staying true to the same razor, is this the same for anyone else here? Part of the fun of wetshaving for me is the huge choice of products at my disposal, and deciding which ones to go for on any given day. But if this mornings injuries are indicative of where freedom of shaving choice can get you, you can keep it.
Another reason I am particularly annoyed about the events of this morning, is because today was the day I managed to get a great lather out of a cream that wasn't Harris almond (it was Taylor avocado if you were wondering) yet still I managed to mess my face up quite badly.
The obvious answer is to lower the blade exposure on the futur, and I am sure that will help, but the razor just seemed so much more difficult to manoeuvre today. Ironically, I actually got a really good, almost BBS result going across the grain with the futur, something I am never able to accomplish with the HD.
So once again I have hit a brick wall, and would appreciate any suggestions of where to go from here.
Warm regards,
Alex

[Sam]

I can not tell you about the Futur having only had a Vision, and I did use an open comb once. I will say that I do find value in sticking with one razor. I sold my Vision as I think it was harsher, but some may value that or need it. I am using a Gillette adjustable and I have the Fatboy and the slim and I am using the Fatboy. I use a Slant bar for touchup and that really makes the difference, whether I used a Vision or the Fatboy. So, I go with the Fatboy as it is less harsh

Sam

[Dennis]

Greeting Alex -

I own both razors plus a 1949 Gillette Super Speed that I just bought and have been using for my last couple shaves. There is quite a difference razor-wise between the HD and the Futur - they shave pretty differently. The HD is similiar to the SS but I find the Gillette actually shaves better. The heads on both the HD and Gillette are alot smaller than the Futur so the trickier spots are easier to get to (like under the nose) and the very short handles allow for very easy angle adjustment without anything getting in the way.

The Futur is a nice razor unto itself. Excellent weight and feel, excellent positive feedback along with adjustibility. I think a setting of about 2 is fairly equivalent to the HD. Compared to the Gillette, a setting of about -10 on the Futur - I can't believe how little of the blade shows on the SS.

I started with the Futur, tried the HD for a while, then went back to the Futur and continued to use it for several months until I got the latest toy. I think there is some truth to "razor fidelity" but I think it lies more in learning to shave with safety razors in general as the longer I shave DE-style, the better the shaves get along with my expectations of the shave. You didn't mention what blades you were using but I have found that makes a big, big difference. In these razors and for my beard, I really like the Derbys, Israelis and Merkurs. I am not so hot on the Swedish Gillettes or the Feathers - I just got nicked up more so than with the other blades.

Hope that helps -

[AJS]

Thanks for the replies. With regards to the blades that I use I mainly stick to the Merkur platinums, I have also tried the Swedish Gillettes, Israelis, Derby and am in the middle of trying out some blades that SSLStudio sent me, the Sharps being my favourite.
Everything you say about the Futur is true, I particularly like the auditory feedback you get from it, and apart from the handle being quite slippery, I agree about its excellent feel; this morning however it just felt counter intuitive.
I've got a slant bar coming from classic shaving, but after todays escapades I think I will hold off on using it for a long while.
I still rate the futur more highly than the HD (probably because I started out with it) and it has many excellent qualities, but I am somewhat reluctant to use it again. Lowering the blade exposure should help prevent the unsightly injuries, but I am worried about learning to handle it properly all over again. I dont get as good a shave from the HD, but it looks as if I will have to stick with it a little longer, at least until my neck heals (its still bleeding a bit now!)
Warm regards,
Alex

[NYLaw]

Alex,

Funny thing, I went from the HD to the Futur, and, like you, find that the Futur is surprisingly easier, closer, and less nick-y.

I agree that there's something to be said for learning one razor and being comfortable with that razor. Would I use a pseudo-physiological label like "muscle memory"? Probably not, but what do I know? (Not much, about science anyway... "not since my case of necrotizing fasciitis brought on by streptococcal pneumonia.")

In any event, I keep my Futur on 3/3.5 for the ultimate... And once in a while it comes with a tiny red speck or two.

[AJS]

I felt a bit foolish using a phrase like 'muscle memory' to talk about my shaving experiences; but in my second year at university I shared a room with a sports science student, obviously picked up some bad habits.
Warm regards,
Alex

[NMMB]

I felt a bit foolish using a phrase like 'muscle memory' to talk about my shaving experiences; but in my second year at university I shared a room with a sports science student, obviously picked up some bad habits.
Warm regards,
Alex

I was actually pleased to hear a term like 'muscle memory'; it makes me feel like less of a geek for doing things like bringing ideas from economic theory into the discussions here (as I've done a couple of time - and the last time I even provided a sketch!).

As for the Futur/HD question, well, I'm afraid that I can't help. My only razor to date is the HD (though, if somebody donates a Futur I would be happy to get back to you in a few weeks )

[Scotto]

Whenever I use a lighter/smaller razor and go back to the Futur, there is a conscious adjustment I have to make. First is pressure - the Futur is much heavier, and you have to re-teach yourself "no pressure" after using a lighter razor. It may feel like you are using no pressure on the HD, but you would be surprised what you are really doing if you stop and concentrate on it. Second is angle. I find that after a while of not using the Futur, I start choking up on the handle, causing improper razor angle and more problems. Force yourself to hold it farther down the handle and concentrate on the angle. Hope this helps.

[guenron]

Oh my. Muscle memory is now psuedo science? I would suggest that you read a bit more before writing off muscle memory. You may wish to read this article for laymen.

[AJS]

Whenever I use a lighter/smaller razor and go back to the Futur, there is a conscious adjustment I have to make. First is pressure - the Futur is much heavier, and you have to re-teach yourself "no pressure" after using a lighter razor. It may feel like you are using no pressure on the HD, but you would be surprised what you are really doing if you stop and concentrate on it. Second is angle. I find that after a while of not using the Futur, I start choking up on the handle, causing improper razor angle and more problems. Force yourself to hold it farther down the handle and concentrate on the angle. Hope this helps.

Thanks Scotto, I tend to hold the Futur at the very base of the handle anyway, but I really do struggle with the actual angle of the blade whichever razor I use. I can't seem to get a consistent angle that doesn't irritate, and if I take it to the other side of the spectrum I tend to miss everything; I really can't find that sweetspot between no cutting at all and losing a pint of blood.
I am long sighted, so I find it really difficult to focus in on the blade. Constantly struggling to find the right angle is really taking the enjoyment out of my shaving. I know a lot of people say that it is a matter of 'feel' for the right angle and that this comes with experience, but I just can't get the hang of finding the proper angle. Any suggestions.
Warm regards,
Alex

[mrob]

Oh my. Muscle memory is now psuedo science? I would suggest that you read a bit more before writing off muscle memory. You may wish to read this article for laymen.

From the article in question: "However, exactly how this occurs is under investigation. In addition, the synaptic transmission is just one component of a complex series of events involved in motor function."

According to my scientist friends, there is no such thing as "muscle memory." They say that we do develop a certain degree of automaticity, but the memory as such is not stored in the muscles, so. . .no muscle memory.

[woodbane]

I also have a Futur and a Long Handle Classic Merkur and now a Feather Artist Club straight (how's that for having to master some different techniques!!). The two DE's will be my go to razors and although I've only had the Futur a couple of weeks, I think I'm definitely preferring it. The straight will probably be reserved for the last shave of the week on Friday, when I have a bit more time and will hopefully be getting close shaves that will last me to Monday!

As to switching between the two, I agree that there is a conscious decision to handle the razor differently. The weight of the Futur really does take care of the shave for you and I agree with Scotto 100%, you might think you are using zero pressure with that HD but I bet you're not.

I know with my Long Handle I started off using zero pressure but it didn't take me long to figure out how much pressure I could use to get a BBS shave without razor burn. Not so with the Futur, I am very careful about using as little pressure as possible with that razor.

Of course, the zero pressure advice is still excellent and should always be how new shavers start. However people must realize as their technique improves and they become more confident not only with the razor but their own face, then they will start to use the razor a little differently.

If in doubt, stick with the one that gives you the best shaves! For me, the Futur on a 6 for the first pass and then dialed back to 1.5 for subsequent passes seems to be working wonders - thanks to Ron (again!) for that advice.

[yasuo200365]

Personally I think the Futur sucks as a design, the HD is so much nicer.

A setting of 4 is your problem IMV, try 2 instead ..., less is more.

Regards
John

[Scotto]

Well, to each his own. For my beard, I love to use the Futur (and the Vision, when I had one) wide-open on the with- and across-grain passes.

[Kyle]

From the article in question: "However, exactly how this occurs is under investigation. In addition, the synaptic transmission is just one component of a complex series of events involved in motor function."

According to my scientist friends, there is no such thing as "muscle memory." They say that we do develop a certain degree of automaticity, but the memory as such is not stored in the muscles, so. . .no muscle memory.

While I would agree that a muscle cannot store a memory, there is definitely more to a motor function than solely a synaptic transmission. I firmly believe this as I see it daily while performing my job, training highly skilled athletes. This topic, however, could be it's own message board.

In relation to the issue at hand, every razor is going to require some unique techniques. There are basic principles in DE shaving that should/will carry over from razor to razor, however, there will be little nuances that must be learned for each individual razor.

I think it is odd that you would have so much trouble transitioning back and forth between razors (AJS), maybe there are some additional factors that have not yet occurred to you, which adversely effected your return to the futur.

[guenron]

From the article in question: "However, exactly how this occurs is under investigation. In addition, the synaptic transmission is just one component of a complex series of events involved in motor function."

According to my scientist friends, there is no such thing as "muscle memory." They say that we do develop a certain degree of automaticity, but the memory as such is not stored in the muscles, so. . .no muscle memory.

Gee, I guess that really makes it authoritative... Next time you walk, think about it.. And, the article is not in question, it is merely one for laymen. Try Google'ing Muscle Memory.. You will find that muscle memory is more than a term. If you wish to take it literally, revisit your recitation of automaticity. Are those automation centers residing on your tendons? Perhaps training does not bring about muscle memory, but results in the ability to reproduce relatively complex repetitive activity where the muscles are able to respond with identical actions. If you had to ideate the actions required to walk, you would probably find yourself on the ground unable to walk. Next time you talk to your physiologist scientist friends, perhaps they can transcend the sophistry of saying there is not muscle memory and provide you with a satisfactory reason for practicing physical activity, or even better a name for the results of that practice.

[mrob]

or even better a name for the results of that practice.

I think this is the crux of the issue. As a musician, I would never argue that one could not perform on an instrument at a high level if one needed to actively "think" about each of the multiple physical actions and reactions it requires to play an instrument--or swing a golf club, or shoot a free throw, etc. I guess the quibble is that the term "muscle memory" is inaccurate, and perhaps leads to faulty assumptions about the supposed separation of mental and physical "faculties," a psychological construct that fell out of favor quite some time ago.

Again, there's no question that we learn to perform many tasks without the need to "ideate" each of our actions.

[NYLaw]

Friends,

I didn't mean to start a discussion of muscle memory and it's validity in the science world... I just meant to imply that I'd be over my head in any discussion on that topic, but that I understand the feeling of getting something down. A golf swing (or a tennis swing, or a baseball bat swing, to a lesser degree) is a perfect example of having to be completely aware of every tiny degree of movement, but only until you learn how. The experts at their given sports have all gotten down their mechanics, and some people even study, with slow-motion video, the swings of the best golfers in the sport.

In other words, what Ron describes as "the ability to reproduce relatively complex repetitive activity where the muscles are able to respond with identical actions" WITHOUT having to think too much about it, is what I mean when I think of the words "muscle memory." Just like swinging a driver off the tee for the ten-thousandth time for Tiger, when we wake up and pick up the same razor we've been using for months or years, I think we have gained or obtained or learned equivalent muscle memory.... Sound reasonable?

Anyway, Ron, I truly didn't mean to use the term "pseudo-physiological" in a pejorative way- I wouldn't know if it's pseudo or not. I meant that the term itself is a "lay" term that has been, I believe, inserted into physiology to mean, well, um, whatever you guys have determined it means.

[jfm]

As someone who has (and has had to) study physiology, I think what everyone is debating is something called "spinal motor programs," which certainly do exist. Spinal control of movements has been demonstrated in a variety of species and activities. They allows for the brain to send a basic instruction through the spinal column, and from there a coordinated circuit from spinal interneurons activate motor neurons, and the information is fed back to the spinal interneurons.

These programs allow for the brain to conserve resources for cognitive thought instead of having to control the motor movements of things like walking, operating a door handle, holding a razor correctly, etc. If anyone is really interested in looking into it further, the 2nd and 3rd editions of Bear, Connors, & Paradiso's Neuroscience has a good chapter on it. If you are a medical student or physiologist in training, try Principles of Neural Science by Kandel et al.

- Justin (nerd)