New to Shaptons/synthetics - need advice

[Drybonz]

Hey guys, I just finished putting together a set of Shapton glass stones. I have always used natural stones prior to this... while I consider myself an intermediate honer, I thought I might ask for some advice from people who use Shapton stones regularly, so I can adapt my honing style a bit for these hones.

I have a 500, 1k, 4k, 8k, 16k. Currently I'm using wet dry paper on a smooth granite tile to lap.

1) Is anyone else out there starting their bevel on a 500? For those using either a 500 or 1k, how many laps (range) do you typically find it takes for the bevel? Are you using circle, cross, or normal x-strokes on your lower grit stone... or a combination?

2) When you move above 1k, do you typically change the type of strokes you are using? How many strokes (range) are you typically using per stone? (I understand this will change per razor, etc... I'm just trying to get a rough idea). At what point in your progression would you say you change to "light pressure"?

3) How many are shaving right off the 16k? I will never probably be able to afford a 30k... but 30k owners, would you say there is a significant improvement over a 16k edge?

Any other advice Shapton owners can give me related to using my new hones is most appreciated.

Thanks!

[duderdo]

My setup is different enough from yours that this may not be any help. Also, I've only recently perfected my sequence so take this with a grain of salt. However, my edges lately have been just awesome.

I'm using a 1k pro, 2k glass, the HC series (4k, 6k, 8k), the 16k+30k glass.

1) Is anyone else out there starting their bevel on a 500? For those using either a 500 or 1k, how many laps (range) do you typically find it takes for the bevel? Are you using circle, cross, or normal x-strokes on your lower grit stone... or a combination?

I'm bevel setting on the 1k pro. I start with a slurry using medium-high pressure circular strokes, followed by water only x-strokes. I'd say I do about 4 rounds of circular motions over the length of the hone, and 40 x-strokes. I've heard the 1k pro is quite different from the 1k glass, so take this lightly.

Your setup is definitely more complete than mine for bevel setting, my 1k/2k mix adds redundancy and is a pain sometimes.

2) When you move above 1k, do you typically change the type of strokes you are using? How many strokes (range) are you typically using per stone? (I understand this will change per razor, etc... I'm just trying to get a rough idea). At what point in your progression would you say you change to "light pressure"?

From the 2k I stay pretty consistently at about 60-80 strokes. Keeping in mind that I'm: a) setting the bevel on a non-glass stone going to a 2k glass and b) using the HC series which apparently cut quite a bit slower than the regular glass stones. There are a lot of threads that say the 16k and 30k destroy the edge if used too much, but have never experienced this. With minimal pressure I need 20-40 on the 16k.

I've found that the pressure change is so key that at what point it happens totally makes or breaks my final edge. I try to think about it as though the proportion of metal being removed correlates to the pressure I should use. So this means, for me, roughly 1k-high,2k-medium-high,4k-medium,8k-low,16k+30k-minimal.

Slurry has been a bit question mark for me. I was a big slurry fan throughout the sequence for a while, but have been experimenting with using it only on the 1k and doing water only for the rest. More strokes are needed but initial results seem to be more consistent and less harsh.

3) How many are shaving right off the 16k? I will never probably be able to afford a 30k... but 30k owners, would you say there is a significant improvement over a 16k edge?

I was shaving off the 16k for a while and was very happy with it. I received the 30k as a gift and would say that 16k+CrOx is very nearly as good. However, where the 30k seems to add only a marginal amount to smoothness after the 16k+CrOx, it makes up for in keenness. I'm relatively new to honing but it simply can't be beat for the perfect smooth/keen/comfortable combination.

I had a *lot* of trouble flattening the Shaptons on wet/dry paper on granite as you are doing. I think I was using 600+1200 grit Norton paper and no matter what I did the resulting surface on the hone left *deep* scratches on my edges. I know a lot of people use this method so maybe I was doing something wrong but it just didn't work for me.

[Drybonz]

Dudero, thanks... this gives me some good stuff to think about.

I'm bevel setting on the 1k pro. I start with a slurry using medium-high pressure circular strokes, followed by water only x-strokes. I'd say I do about 4 rounds of circular motions over the length of the hone, and 40 x-strokes. I've heard the 1k pro is quite different from the 1k glass, so take this lightly.

Your setup is definitely more complete than mine for bevel setting, my 1k/2k mix adds redundancy and is a pain sometimes.

I think I will try this routine, but replace your 1k with my 500 and 2k with my 1k.

From the 2k I stay pretty consistently at about 60-80 strokes. Keeping in mind that I'm: a) setting the bevel on a non-glass stone going to a 2k glass and b) using the HC series which apparently cut quite a bit slower than the regular glass stones. There are a lot of threads that say the 16k and 30k destroy the edge if used too much, but have never experienced this. With minimal pressure I need 20-40 on the 16k.

I've found that the pressure change is so key that at what point it happens totally makes or breaks my final edge. I try to think about it as though the proportion of metal being removed correlates to the pressure I should use. So this means, for me, roughly 1k-high,2k-medium-high,4k-medium,8k-low,16k+30k-minimal.

Initially, it seems to me that the amount of pressure on these stones makes more of a difference than any of the natural stones I have been using. I don't think I have this part down just yet.

Slurry has been a bit question mark for me. I was a big slurry fan throughout the sequence for a while, but have been experimenting with using it only on the 1k and doing water only for the rest. More strokes are needed but initial results seem to be more consistent and less harsh.

You aren't building a slurry on your glass stones are you? I'm assuming you just mean on the pro stones?

I was shaving off the 16k for a while and was very happy with it. I received the 30k as a gift and would say that 16k+CrOx is very nearly as good. However, where the 30k seems to add only a marginal amount to smoothness after the 16k+CrOx, it makes up for in keenness. I'm relatively new to honing but it simply can't be beat for the perfect smooth/keen/comfortable combination.

I will, most likely, be shaving right off the 16k mostly, with no pastes. I would like to pick up the 30k at some point, but it's so expensive I might not.

I had a *lot* of trouble flattening the Shaptons on wet/dry paper on granite as you are doing. I think I was using 600+1200 grit Norton paper and no matter what I did the resulting surface on the hone left *deep* scratches on my edges. I know a lot of people use this method so maybe I was doing something wrong but it just didn't work for me.

Are you using a DMT to lap now?

Thanks again for the feedback... it does help.

[johnmrson]

I use the Shapton Cermic Pro stones. I've found that the 1k is qute a slow bevel setter although it does give very good feedback. I now always use it with slurry. I generally do 100 or so laps using x strokes to set a bevel on it. I coud probably get away with less laps but as setting a good bevel is key to a good edge then I don't mind. I found that adding a 2k after the 1k improved my edges
I had both the 16k and 30k glass backed stones for a while. I found the 30k was not rally good value for money. For the price, there wasn't a large improvement of the 16k. In the end, I sold both the 16k and 30k as I peferred the finish from a natural stone.

[Drybonz]

I had both the 16k and 30k glass backed stones for a while. I found the 30k was not rally good value for money. For the price, there wasn't a large improvement of the 16k. In the end, I sold both the 16k and 30k as I peferred the finish from a natural stone.

John, I remember that you sent me a razor that said was honed on your Shaptons. It had quite a nice edge, but I can't remember if you mentioned finishing on the 30k or not.

[duderdo]

Dudero, thanks... this gives me some good stuff to think about.

I think I will try this routine, but replace your 1k with my 500 and 2k with my 1k.

Initially, it seems to me that the amount of pressure on these stones makes more of a difference than any of the natural stones I have been using. I don't think I have this part down just yet.

No problem :)
Right... I've only used Japanese natural stones and from what I could tell pressure could be a bit more variable without as much consequence.

You aren't building a slurry on your glass stones are you? I'm assuming you just mean on the pro stones?

I actually was, all the way up to the 16k. I was all over the place until I found Glen's Shapton youtube videos, following his method exactly infinitely improved my edges. He uses the DGLP to create a slurry on the glass stones with the same setup as yours, I think. I was/am using a DMT325 to create a slurry.

I will, most likely, be shaving right off the 16k mostly, with no pastes. I would like to pick up the 30k at some point, but it's so expensive I might not.

When you get your method down I would wager you'll be happy with the 16k alone. It makes a nice, comfortable edge.

Are you using a DMT to lap now?

Yep, the 325. I've found the weight of it itself creates a much more minor effect that I was talking about with the wet/dry paper scratching the hone, to the point where I actually lift it slightly so it is just abrading the surface. It may be that it's not fully broken in yet as I've never seen a post mentioning this same problem before.

[Drybonz]

I was all over the place until I found Glen's Shapton youtube videos, following his method exactly infinitely improved my edges.

Oh, I would like to see those. I will have to see if I can find them. Thanks.

*edit* Is Glen the YouTube screen name? I can't seem to find those particular videos.

*edit* Found em!

[duderdo]

How are things going? Any success yet?

[Drybonz]

How are things going? Any success yet?

Yes and no... I am mostly struggling with bevel setting. I picked up the Shapton Pro 1.5k to help with that at Honed's recommendation. I managed to hone a razor that I had been struggling with yesterday, and got a great shave, but it took too long and was too clumsy.

I watched that YouTube series by GsSixGun, and I thought it was pretty good. He makes a lot of good comments while he is working.

[rickboone1]

500 is more for extreme work. Removal of chips, etc. Some start at 3k for bevel work but 1k seems to be the norm.

[Drybonz]

500 is more for extreme work. Removal of chips, etc. Some start at 3k for bevel work but 1k seems to be the norm.

To be honest, I feel like to glass 500 would be real slow going for any kind of edge repair.

[superbleu]

Yes and no... I am mostly struggling with bevel setting. I picked up the Shapton Pro 1.5k to help with that at Honed's recommendation. I managed to hone a razor that I had been struggling with yesterday, and got a great shave, but it took too long and was too clumsy.

I watched that YouTube series by GsSixGun, and I thought it was pretty good. He makes a lot of good comments while he is working.

Don't be afraid of using a little bit of pressure when you are bevel setting, this will cut down the time it takes considerably.

[smalltank]

start at 1k with moderate pressure..go 40 laps back n forth..then move up to the next grit..light strokes from there on

[Drybonz]

Don't be afraid of using a little bit of pressure when you are bevel setting, this will cut down the time it takes considerably.

I'm using up to moderate pressure and scrub strokes with the last couple razors I have used. It seems to take longer with these Shaptons than with other bevel setters I have used... which is what surprised me, because everyone talks about how fast these stones are. I just did this Clauss, and I thought it was never going to be over.

[superbleu]

I have lots of stones in the lower grit range, If it takes too long, I revert to the dmt1200. It's tried and true and fast.
If you don't have a DMT1200, use a bit more pressure.

[Drybonz]

I have a DMT 600 I can fall back on... that's what I used to use. I was just hoping I could master these Shaptons.

On a side note... is anyone using a DMT Duo-Sharp (interrupted surface) to lap their Shaptons?

[superbleu]

I have a DMT 600 I can fall back on... that's what I used to use. I was just hoping I could master these Shaptons.

On a side note... is anyone using a DMT Duo-Sharp (interrupted surface) to lap their Shaptons?

I got a chosera 1K after honed et al, hyped these up, but I still haven't figured it out, so I feel your pain.

I know other folks use the duo sharp to lap their stones and like them, not sure if they were shaptons specifically though.

[Drybonz]

I got a chosera 1K after honed et al, hyped these up, but I still haven't figured it out, so I feel your pain.

I know other folks use the duo sharp to lap their stones and like them, not sure if they were shaptons specifically though.

What are you using for a 1k? I have been thinking about trying the Chosera also.

I thought the DuoSharps might be nice because they have a similar interrupted surface to the Shapton lapping plate.

[Great White Shavealo]

3) How many are shaving right off the 16k? I will never probably be able to afford a 30k... but 30k owners, would you say there is a significant improvement over a 16k edge?

I shave right off the 16K and find the shave is quite comfortable, for me. The 16K is just under 1 micron. That is pretty fine. I don't have a 30K, but I have went to 0.3u lapping film from the Shapton 16K and have noticed a slight difference in the blade performance and while the 0.3u cuts hair a little better, I prefer the feel of the 1 micron. But, of course, this is all subjective and yymv.

Edit: I flatten my Shapton with a DMT D8C. Works like a charm.

[superbleu]

the duosharps are also much much lighter.

Shapton glass 500, DMT 320, 600, 1200, Shapton glass 2K, Shapton pro 2K, Norton 1K, Chosera 1K, I had a 1k superstone, but sold that one.
What I use most are the SG500/2000. DMT if the SG500 isn't cutting it.

Chosera is nice because you can set it on edge and use it for smilers or warped razors.