Why the Damaskeene is aggressive, and other tales

[woodfluter]

Note: Revised some photos and conclusions to better reflect comb position on "1912".

More photographic analysis of razor designs.

As many know, I use SE razors like Gem recommended*, with the head flat against the face or nearly so. Doing it that way, I've found the "1912" and three Micromatic designs to shave more or less comparably. That wasn't the case when I used a higher angle, but it is now.

*[Correction: Gem recommended that for MM only, but not for "1912", to my surprise.]

So Wednesday morning, my first Gem 1912 Damaskeene arrived. It's still the 1912 patent, looks superficially similar, so I expected it to shave pretty much the same, although some have said they prefer it and that it's a bit less forgiving. Well, I was in for a surprise. It was more like shaving with my DE Gillette New Improved types. I could feel the burn - not bad, no cuts or anything, but definitely a different experience!

I had to figure out why.




First the basic layout.
Flat springs underneath the head engage lugs on the cap; lock it open or shut.
A flat spring at the back presses against the back of the blade, forcing it against the retaining hooks.
Notice how the comb dips a little below the sides of the baseplate - in this case, not by much.
Ramp at back of baseplate elevates the blade a bit.



Here's the "1912" (a metal-handled Junior this time, but that doesn't matter at all).
Nice low cutting angle.
If you're shaving with the head against the skin, you can see how pressure with bring the blade edge in contact with beard, but the comb position will act as a "brake" and keep it from going too close.




Now the Damaskeene. See that dark part underneath? That's the comb.
Notice how it is substantially farther below the blade than in the other "1912" models.
So less of a brake here! Even with low-angle shaving, extra pressure will take a toll.

So, what if you're not shaving with a low angle?
Then blade exposure becomes more important.




Here's the standard "1912" head.
A steeper cutting angle if you're going to use "no pressure".
Moderate blade exposure. Moderate distance from comb to blade edge.




With the Damaskeene, about the same angle and blade exposure - perhaps a tad more.
However, a considerably longer space from the tangent to the comb and the blade edge.
The difference might be noticeable if too much pressure was applied.

[woodfluter]

How do the preceding SE razors compare to the Micromatic line?
And will that make sense of my (and others) experiences with them?




Here's the MM open comb, reputed to be the least forgiving.
This one doesn't have the raised "dots" that some of (later?) OCMMs have.
About the same cutting angle, if used with head against the skin.
The comb is just visible, jutting out.




And now the other end of the spectrum, the Flying Wing, reputed to be mildest.
Here, you can't see the guard bar hidden behind the sides.
It drops down a little less than the OCMM comb, but the latter juts out farther.
So about the same value as a "brake" on excess pressure with low-angle technique.

You can see why someone shaving at low angle wouldn't find them very different.




Here's what the OCMM looks like with the hood up.
No dots on this one to elevate the blade.




The dots raise the blade angle a tad with the Flying Wing, but not as much as I'd have thought.

Now for higher angle shaving...harder to analyze, but the OCMM comb being slightly lower and farther out creates more of a gap...not just the difference in elevation between blade edge and comb or guard, but also the space laterally to it. The blade exposure may be more, but also the potential for skin to rise up between guard and edge.

Harder to display in photos than to see under magnification from various angles, but these might give you some sense of the differences.

[jamesspo]

Great stuff, Bill! While I have both Damaskeene, and a couple of other 1912's, I never noticed the difference visually. I've only shaved with the Damaskeene, so I'll have to try the others as well. As usual great work! This motivates me to try to get some photos done.

[Cicatero]

Excellent informational post, should be added to the Gem wiki article!

[Haiku]

A great thread, thanks!

[themba]

Great pictures. I wish I had a camera that took picture like that.

As many know, I use SE razors like Gem recommended, with the head flat against the face or nearly so.

Unfortunately this is a blanket statement and Gem NEVER recommended that all their razors be used with the head flat against the face. In regards to the 1912, it was recommended that the razor be used with a steeper angle than one generated when the razor is held with the head flat to your face. Below is a picture with shaving instructions (to the left) for the pat 1912 models:
[IMG]

It was with the Contour, Micromatics, etc, that they recommended to go with the flat to your face angle, which may or may not work the best even with these razors.

The biggest factor is the relationship of the guard bar to the blade. On any safety razor, SE, DE, etc, the main purposes of the guard bar are to stretch the skin, and to protect the skin from the blade digging in. (Straight razor shavers know that one of the biggest things they have to look out for is keeping the skin tight enough to prevent the blade from diggin in) One should strive to find the shaving angle that allows these safeguards to take place without much effort. To much pressure need not be applied either.

Using side angles do not really show this relationship, since the blade-stops block the position of the guard bar. In your first picture, one can see that the guard bar sits slightly lower, and at a different angle to the blade stops and the blade.

[jbradley]

Good stuff! I have a love hate going on with my Gems, same as my New Improved. I love them, but haven't quite gotten a handle on them yet. I'll have to try using a very flat angle. Maybe the razor designers knew what they were talking about after all!

[woodfluter]

Unfortunately this is a blanket statement and Gem NEVER recommended that all their razors be used with the head flat against the face. [...] Below is a picture with shaving instructions (to the left) for the pat 1912 models:

Thanks Themba! I stand corrected.
I'd never seen this instruction sheet for the 1912s. You're absolutely right.
They were very emphatic about that with the MMs, but strongly advocated the opposite with the 1912.
Most curious.

What's interesting is, I'd been shaving with the flat approach for both types and noticed rather little difference; it worked as well for the 1912 as for the MM. But not the same with the Damaskeene. And the photos give an idea of why.

The biggest factor is the relationship of the guard bar to the blade. On any safety razor, SE, DE, etc, the main purposes of the guard bar are to stretch the skin, and to protect the skin from the blade digging in.

Hmmm...guard/comb skin stretching is something I've never quite found to be true in my case. It seems to me that:

(a) one has to use a steeper angle to get enough contact with the guard or comb,
(b) less pressure can be applied at that steeper angle without the blade digging in, and
(c) more pressure is exactly what would be needed for a guard bar to do any useful amount of stretching.

On top of that, it would seem that slick combs would be a little less effective stretchers than guard bars, esp.those with lateral grooves, like those on Schick injectors. More contact with a bar. For the "1912" types, they seem to have more of a comb connected at the bottom, where it can't really contact the skin...so a comb effectively. Now many seem to find open comb razors more effective, or aggressive etc. (I don't, actually.) So if stretching was a factor, wouldn't it be the other way around?

But who knows, it's hard to tell what will work for someone else considering all the variables.

I've certainly tried the higher angle with light pressure on different DEs for years and couldn't detect any stretching benefits. I do get benefit from tightening the skin with facial muscles and in tough spots, stretching it taut with the free hand. So yeah it matters but not convinced the razor can do that.

Themba, you're also right about the blade-stop sides blocking view of the top of the comb in the first picture. You can see it in the second photo (Damaskeene) because it's so much lower.

BTW, I shaved with the Damaskeene for the second time this morning, and this time without burn. I used a low angle again but had to be much more careful about pressure than with a typical 1912...but this time I understood what I was facing! Rather similar to a Feather in a New Improved. Very close shave, but more attention required.

In light of the instruction sheet, I'm going to try a higher angle with the Damaskeene tomorrow. Comparison is good.

[jamesspo]

Yeah, I don't really buy the skin stretching with the guard. For me, it's about getting the blade at an angle that works well for shaving, which is low angles in my case. The guard is rarely even involved in my shaving for most razors. With milder razors it certainly is though, by necessity because of the narrower range of usable shaving angles.

For me, I use the Damaskeene just a bit steeper than flat against the face, and that seems to be the sweet spot in terms of effective hair cutting.

[themba]

Great post and discussion thus far. I think you may be exaggerating the word stretching as it was used in this context. It really does not take much to provide the effect the blade needs, and most likely it would not be a noticeable effect to you feeling or visual wise. Even open combs can do this job just fine and to much pressure with these can distort the skin thus affecting the shave. The designers of these razors did not put guard bars of them to "comb" the hair. Schick's idea to place lateral groves on some injector guard bars, whether effective or not, was intended to increase traction to aid in this kind of effect. You may be interpreting effects that you can notice with effects in general. The same thing applies ot the word steep. This should also not be exaggerated.

This key with SE razors is understanding their shaving angles and that changes to them will impact your shave. Some of the SE razors we use were orginally designed for use with SE blades that were much thicker and more importantly had thicker spines. When we show up and stick a much thinner modern SE blade in these razors that also has a much thinner spine the shaving angles are greatly affected. Sometimes, just adjusting the angle as you shave is not enough to resolve this problem. My go to razors are Ever Ready patented 1914 models. I get the best shaves by using the proper shave angle and spine on the blade. The razor still shaves ok by just throwing a modern thin SE blade in, but the proper angle and spine produce a superb shave.

[themba]

The guard is rarely even involved in my shaving for most razors

How many safety razors have you seen without a guard bar of some type. This is strange for something that "is rarely even involved" to be used so extensively. This is not to say one cannot shave without a guard bar. People use regular straight razors and disposable straight razor regularly which do not have a guard bar. However, the guard bar has it's purposes.

Some of the older three piece open comb DE razors can be assembled without the use of the bottom comb assembly. They will shave this way even though you will be more likely to nick or cut yourself.

[woodfluter]

Some of the SE razors we use were orginally designed for use with SE blades that were much thicker and more importantly had thicker spines. When we show up and stick a much thinner modern SE blade in these razors that also has a much thinner spine the shaving angles are greatly affected.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. After shaving this morning, I recalled that I had a genuine Gem Damaskeene blade that came loaded in a 1912 I got recently. The kind that the GD said to "use only" on the inside of this razor. I was wondering if there really was a difference.

So I aligned a modern SS coated Gem blade with this one and looked carefully.
Then I got out the calipers.

-- Same outer dimensions exactly.
-- Same width of spine in back.
-- About same thickness of spine in back (1.20 vs 1.10 mm)
-- Same blade thickness (0.225 mm for each)

I think a lot of folks think they were different, and maybe some of them were, but apparently not the Damaskeene.

[jamesspo]

Oh yeah, I agree. I guess I view the bar as a limiter on how deep of a cut is possible. But that's certainly not a mainstream view. Many razors are used naturally with the cap and guard against the face, and the guard certainly works as both a safety device and a guide in that case. It's just not how I typically use them.

How many safety razors have you seen without a guard bar of some type. This is strange for something that "is rarely even involved" to be used so extensively. This is not to say one cannot shave without a guard bar. People use regular straight razors and disposable straight razor regularly which do not have a guard bar. However, the guard bar has it's purposes.

Some of the older three piece open comb DE razors can be assembled without the use of the bottom comb assembly. They will shave this way even though you will be more likely to nick or cut yourself.

[woodfluter]

How many safety razors have you seen without a guard bar of some type. This is strange for something that "is rarely even involved" to be used so extensively. This is not to say one cannot shave without a guard bar. People use regular straight razors and disposable straight razor regularly which do not have a guard bar. However, the guard bar has it's purposes.

I agree entirely. But I think James' point (true for me too) is that, at a steeper angle, the guard or comb is farther away from your skin and plays less role. None at all if you do everything just so.

If you press too hard, it's there to protect you! Like training wheels. If your technique was perfect, you could shave without any guard - same as a straight - which is what you said essentially.

I agree, great discussion and contributions.

[woodfluter]

By the way, I revised a couple of the photos about blade exposure given Themba's correct comments about the hidden comb position in the "1912" photo. I put the line to the comb top in the right place this time!

The new photos show greater similarity of angle and blade exposure to the Damaskeene, but there's a wider gap from edge to comb tangent with the latter. So I revised that part of the text too. Thanks for the sharp eyeballs!

- Bill

[themba]

So I aligned a modern SS coated Gem blade with this one and looked carefully.
Then I got out the calipers.

-- Same outer dimensions exactly.
-- Same width of spine in back.
-- About same thickness of spine in back (1.20 vs 1.10 mm)
-- Same blade thickness (0.225 mm for each)

I think a lot of folks think they were different, and maybe some of them were, but apparently not the Damaskeene.

SE razors started with wedge blades and progressed to thicker semi - disposable blades, and then to blades we know now. The SE blades that were uses with 1912 models, Micromatics, Contour, Pushbuttons are roughly the same as modern SE blades. However, some older SE blades were much thicker and had thicker spines. (some even came in seven day sets) It all depends on what razors you are using. I have the original blades that came with my ER patented 1914 and they are much thicker and had thicker spines. They will not fit into Micromatics and 1912 models will not close properly because they are to thick. These blades also do not flex like modern blades.

Interesting dicsussion. It is also worthy to point out that even with those razors that specify a shave with the head flat to your face, most SE shavers prefer to shave with the head lifted up slightly. This would result in better relation between the skin, the guard bar and the blade, so one can see why they shave that way.

[woodfluter]

OK, as promised I used a higher-angle approach with the Damaskeene this morning.
Just about like the angle in the instruction sheet at post #10, but actually slightly lower.

It feels like exactly the same closeness.

I had to fight muscle memory and remember to use a very light touch.
When I pressed a bit (in one place, initially), I could feel the burn afterward.
As long as I was mindful, no problems.
But I do feel some burn around the neck, more than yesterday.

Blade makes more noise this way.
The only place where I noticed a difference is the usual problem areas under chin and on neck.
At the higher angle, I think it took fewer strokes to get the lay-down hairs there.
(I'd noticed that before and sometimes do a few strokes there with the blade elevated anyway.)

Well, works fine this way too, but from previous experience I'd expect greatly diminished blade life.

Was worthwhile revisiting this approach.
I think for me, the best might be low-angle except for higher angle on the last pass, around the neck.

Addendum:
As of 4:30 PM, I'm feeling a bit more stubble than I would expect.
I'm not so sure this approach shaved me as closely, in retrospect.

[alex2363]

one of the best descriptive threads to date, i vote sticky

[Cicatero]

[IMG]

Since original instruction sheets for antique razors are so rare, a compendium of them would be nice to have as part of B&B's Shavewiki!

[woodfluter]

Since original instruction sheets for antique razors are so rare, a compendium of them would be nice to have as part of B&B's Shavewiki!

I second that motion!

I copied a few that have been posted at B&B in the past, but having everything in one place for reference would be a great resource and historically interesting.