Rifle Advice

[garyg]

.308 WIN & the 7.62 NATO are the same round.

[huntingdan]

I like the .270 since I hunt in larger farm fields and long lanes. When I buy guns for hunting use, the most important thing I do first is find one that fits. Most guns out of a box are going to fit and feel different. Once I find that I decide on the caliber based on my needs. Last thing I go by is looks, especially for an everyday hunting rifle, it's going to get beat up and dirty depending on your environment you hunt in. Price range is a big factor too, but I really make sure I look up at the history of the company.

I got into the problem last year when trying to find a new shotgun for duck hunting. I wanted a bolt action since I hunt some in open water and have seen to many semi's get frozen. I really like the Remington 870's but the one I had been shooting was an older version made of very fine quality. These days most of the Rem. 870's are stamped parts in the express version unless you buy the Wingmaster.

Anyways, I've heard good things about Howa, they are all over TV. Just find what fits in your price range. Do a little research on how their made and if it fits the bill get it. You can mess with the accuracy by reloading (if you're into that) or buying different cartridges until you find the one your gun likes.

Happy shopping!

[OkieStubble]

.308 WIN & the 7.62 NATO are the same round.

7.62x51 to be exact. Not to be confused with the 7.62x54. Just sayin. :)

[Chefbaze]

+ 1 To me. I can hardly tell the difference in recoil between my, Browning BAR .270, and BAR 30-06.. My Remington model 7 in .308 with Nylon stock, so its far lighter, still kicks noticeably less...

If Im not mistaken, isn't .308 also used as the NATO round? A slight step up in power from .223 and 7.62 military rounds.. Most standard military issue rounds, are chosen for their versatility, accuracy, etc'

.308 WIN & the 7.62 NATO are the same round.

sorry about that. I meant the .308 being a step up in power from the .223 and 5.56x45...point being, that Standard military issued calibers, are usually chosen for versatility..

[MASSDRIVER]

.308 WIN & the 7.62 NATO are the same round.

NOT PERSONAL!
This statement is not true, but is widely believed. Here is a cut and paste explanation that explaines the difference eaiser than I can.
“are the .308 Winchester and 7.62×51 NATO one and the same.” The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62×51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win “Go Gauge” is 1.630″ vs. 1.635″ for the 7.62×51. The .308′s “No-Go” dimension is 1.634″ vs. 1.6405″ for a 7.62×51 “No Go” gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62×51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: “[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn’t to the .308 ‘headspace’ dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.” You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62×51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max.

It should be noted the same myth exists with the .223 win vs. 5.56 NATO. You should not shoot the military variant in a .223 rifle. It is THE OPPOSITE OF .308 vs. 7.62
Brent.

[VladTepes]

.308 or 30.06 - there's not much between them, but the 30.06 has a slight edge with heavier projectiles due to marginally higher powder capacity.

These are very versatile calibers and especially if you reload you can load them down or up to get the performance / recoil that you desire. Plus there is a LOT of choice in projectiles in .30 cal

If this is to be your one and only centrefire rifle, I'd say one of those would be an ideal choice.

I have no idea re American pricing (except it's MUCH cheaper than here) but if it's in budget make sure you have a look at the Browning A-Bolt.

The magazine set up is a love or hate it affair, I'm firmly in the "love it" category. In my opinion it's very practical.

Enjoy !

[jkingrph]

NOT PERSONAL!
This statement is not true, but is widely believed. Here is a cut and paste explanation that explaines the difference eaiser than I can.
“are the .308 Winchester and 7.62×51 NATO one and the same.” The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62×51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win “Go Gauge” is 1.630″ vs. 1.635″ for the 7.62×51. The .308′s “No-Go” dimension is 1.634″ vs. 1.6405″ for a 7.62×51 “No Go” gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62×51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: “[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn’t to the .308 ‘headspace’ dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.” You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62×51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max.

It should be noted the same myth exists with the .223 win vs. 5.56 NATO. You should not shoot the military variant in a .223 rifle. It is THE OPPOSITE OF .308 vs. 7.62
Brent.

In reality you can say the same thing about the commercial 30-06 round and the military round, The reason being that the military round, and this is probably the reason for your statement about the .308, is that the military loading is designed for a certain pressure level at a particular point( the gas port) on the barrel so that excessive pressure will not bend the long operating rod. Generally speaking the military rounds are loaded to lower pressures than their comparable commercial siblings. I used to load some fairly hot loadings for my 30-06 bolt action, but since getting a Garand I use M-1 Garand reloading data for all my 30-06 ammo.

Now please correct me if I am wrong but I am thinking the .223 Rem and the 5.56 NATO round are the oppoisite, the military round having the higher pressure. Most military guns, at least the us AR 15 use a direct impingment gas system , no cylinder, piston and operating rod, whereby the gas to operate the action is piped back and blows directly into a part called the gas key, which is in reality a semi cylinder, ie it fits fairly loose fitting tube that fits over the end of the gas tube and is not supposed to contact the gas tube.

No correction needed I found my answer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

Funny thing, I purchased a Remington 700 varmit special in .223 in 1970 while a young USAF officer so I could shoot readily available military ammo. I have no idea in the years that have passed as to how many rounds of 5.56 ammo have gone through that .223 chamber with no problems, several thousand, then brass prepped and reloaded.

[MASSDRIVER]

The difference is enough that you run the RISK of destroying a rifle. Not only do you get the higher pressures, if you get to tight a headspace you increase them even further. There are some documented KBm! of putting the wrong round in the wrong rifle.
It is correct to say the dimensions are the same though.
Brent.

[kirk 988]

ide not reccomend a 308 ive fired a few and at long ranges fire not nearly as well as a 300 win mag

but all up ide say a 30-06 or a 6.5 swede

[thebikingengineer]

ide not reccomend a 308 ive fired a few and at long ranges fire not nearly as well as a 300 win mag

but all up ide say a 30-06 or a 6.5 swede

From the research I've done thus far I'm thinking the 300 Win Mag is way too much punch for my purposes.

Right now I'm between the Weatherby and the Howa; and between .308, .270, and .30-06. The Howa is cheaper, but I think the
Weatherby would be the better rifle overall. The ammo depends on where I'd be shooting. I'll have to get the opinions of some of my coworkers to see what they use. Right now I'm leaning towards one of the .30 cal rounds just due to how adaptable each can be.

[MASSDRIVER]

The bikingengineer (TBE), what did you think of the action on the Weatherby? The reason I ask is my buddy bought his in 300Weatherby Mag a few years back, and I felt that 6 lug? locking bolt was horrendously notchy. It locked up fine of course, but I compared it to my later M70 Winchester in 30-06 and thought it was a dog. My 06 is like butter, and I love putting quick rounds down range. I found it a real chore with the Weatherby. Don't get me wrong... fine rifle, but not a quick action, and me not a fan of that bolt action.
So if you are like me and like to stand and ring steel at 200 yards as fast as I can, I would probably not go that way myself.
The dream rifle for that type of shooting would be a Blazer, but that's a ways off for me. $$$$$$
This is my goal...never get there but I can dream
The guy is a stud. Listen to what he has to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byChk...layer_embedded
Brent.

[thebikingengineer]

I got to shoulder two Vanguards, the first one had the bolt out and a trigger guard, so that was no help. The second one was, at a different store, the entry model. I really liked the action on it. It wasn't the fastest action I've ever felt, but it was the most solid bolt I've tried so far. I'm not looking to put a lot of rounds down range quickly, so the slow action isn't an issue for me. I'm 150# wet, so I'm thinking quick follow up shots are not going to be a frequent occurrence at these calibers.

I'll have to try and find an M70 to cycle, I believe that's a 60 degree bolt as opposed to the 90 degree design on the Weatherby.

[jkingrph]

I'm old school, prefering the original two massive locking lugs of the traditional Mauser type action as well as the controlled feed, where the extractor engages the cartridge rim as the cartridge feeds into the chamber.


For versatility and ammo availability you cannot go wrong with the .308, 30-06, or .270, with in my opinion versatility going to the 30-06 as it will throw heavier bullets than the other two if you want to hunt some of the larger game.

[SteveWY]

When it comes to caliber choices everyone has an opinion and is an expert. The .223 vs. .308 choice baffles me as they are worlds a part in bullet weight, recoil and utility. I've been a game warden (and hunter) for 30+ years and have used a .223 in a Mini-14, a .243 Win in a bolt action Remington 700, a .308 in bolt actions and M-14, and a 7MM Rem Mag in a Ruger. All have there place and application and get the job done. If you are looking for one rifle for target and deer hunting (I assume in California you are after Blacktailed Deer) I would lean towards a mid-caliber cartridge that is very shootable, low recoil, ammo is readily available. The .243 will do everything you want I have killed dozens of antelope and mule deer with my .243. Also a .25-06 or .270 would be a fine choice. But the .243 is a nice easy-to-shoot round that new shooters and kids will have no problem with it. The .308 and .243 is the same case, with the .243 being a necked-down .308 case. The .308 is a fine cartridge but likely not the best just for mainly target shooting. IMO of course. Good luck and happy shooting.

[jkingrph]

Th

e .308 is a fine cartridge but likely not the best just for mainly target shooting. IMO of course. Good luck and happy shooting.

I am not a precision target shooter, but reload, and think there are more quality targer or match grade bullets available for 30 cal than .243(6mm). There are definetly more match grade rifles made for .308 than .243, bolt action and semi auto in the M-14 types and in the AR-10 platform.

[thebikingengineer]

What does everyone think about the 7mm-08 Rem? It seems like it might be a good compromise round, with decent killing power, lighter recoil than the parent .308, and a large selection of loadings for all situations.

[noelekal]

I'm a fan of .30-06 first and foremost but the .308 is a fine general purpose round and effective for most any purpose big or little, long or short that one could find here in the 48 states. I have a .308 and it's well-mannered and accurate. My dad has a dandy .270 which is also a fine long range cartridge delivering usefully flat trajectories and good down range punch and all without beating a shooter to death as the magnum cartridges can. I'm not crazy about any cartridge that wears the "magnum" suffix until it gets to .30 caliber or larger. The smaller ones won't accomplish anything at any reasonable range and against any game animal that their standard counterparts can't accomplish.

Here's a really nice little Ruger 77 .308 carbine with factory laminated stock that my brother-in-law bought new a couple of years back. I'm not generally a fan of any Ruger products but this one makes tight little 5-shot groups at 100 yards from the bench rest. He's already taken several whitetail deer with it down here in Texas.


My brother-in-law also has a Howa .338 Winchester Magnum bolt action rifle as well and it gives a fine, reliable performance. He took an oryx with it in a New Mexico hunt at White Sands a few years ago. Howa's represent good value.

Regarding the purported "differences" between various military rounds and their commercial counterparts: I own and handload for examples of each military cartridge mentioned above and shoot them in both military chambers and commercial chambers. It's funny how the RCBS loading die sets I use to assemble .223/5.56 NATO (whether fired in a Colt SP-1 or a Remington 788 bolt action), .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO (whether fired in an M1A with a military contract barrel in it or a Ruger 77 bolt action), and .30-06 (whether fired in a Winchester Model 70, 1903 Springfield, or M1) are all marked .223, .308, and .30-06 respectively. These supposed differences are way overblown in the way internet rumors are wont to be, no matter which "experts" are called into play. It's fun to be all alarmist and cry knowingly that "the sky is falling" over notions bandied about. One chooses his ammunition or else handloads it to match the peculiarities of his rifle no matter what rifle it is. This "completely different cartridge" business is nonsense. I'm not an expert but didn't just start shooting and handloading last night.

[MASSDRIVER]

[QUOTE=noelekal;4012466This "completely different cartridge" business is nonsense. I'm not an expert... [/QUOTE]
"...And I accept full responsibility for informing you you may be creating pressures 20 percent higher than recommended in some rifles. But I am no expert. But it's OK. Really. Even though there are documented cases of failures using the wrong load. And if I DO damage my rifle, the manufacturer will back me with the full warranty, although I used a different cartridge than that designed for the rifle. But because it has never happened to me (yet), and I am admittedly no expert. I hereby degree that any warning given to you by anyone else is crapola and nonsense."
Good luck with that. EXPERTS say don't do it.
Brent.

[auk1124]

Unless things have changed in the last few years, the Weatherby Vanguard and the Howa are pretty much the same rifle (maybe some differences in the stocks, I don't know).

A Howa in 7mm-08 or 243 or 308 would be a great multi-purpose rifle. I wouldn't pay a price markup for a Vanguard over a Howa, unless there is some sort of difference in the stock and the Vanguard's stock was worth the extra money.

Another great option would be a Savage - they're accurate shooters and their accu-trigger is sweet. Unless their prices have risen drastically in the last few years, Savage should offer a package rifle with cheap scope installed for $500 or less.

[MASSDRIVER]

I'll just put this here, and any opinions otherwise may be objectified from it.
Please do not blow your gun up because of bad, uninformed, "sample of one" opinions.
Respect to all, by the way. Not personal, just common sense to refrain from stating "facts" that can cause damage or injury.
Brent.

http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html