Head-to-Head Mystic Water vs RazoRock Artisan!

**JCinPA** · 04-01-2012, 08:07 PM

This is making me nuts! I just got home from visiting my parents and when I saw these I went and lathered it yet again. No matter how hard I work, I can't get the peaks you guys are getting, and it won't hold that long. However, there is clearly no arguing with your results.

Brucered has been a member over a year, cvac for over 3.5 years. Me for just under a year, but I've been soap shaving for almost 20 years, we're not noobs by any stretch of the imagination.

The only plausible explanation I can come up with is batch consistency. Clearly this soap can be a world class product, and I am really loving the shaves I'm getting despite my issues. There is no doubt in my little military mind that this stuff can be awesome, indeed. I cannot think of any reason other than batch consistency that so many experienced shavers can have such wildly varying results. And for each of us our results are consistent. By that I mean you guys getting good results are getting them easily and consistently, and those of us having problems are simply not able to plow through them, which all points to differences between batches.

P.S. Shaverjoe, I agree, it can be a great product. your photos are just awesome.

**cvac** · 04-01-2012, 08:22 PM

I do also think it could be a great product. I am not a soap chemist but one thing I have noticed with soaps and creams is that the ones that contain large quantities of Stearic Acid or Potassium Stearate lather extremely well. The lather also tends to be durable. I would be very curious to see what would happen if some of the other ingredients were decreased the Stearic Acid was increased.

I was able to get some peaks, but they definitely didn't hold, and those peaks were only on the brush, not on my face.

**Phog Allen** · 04-01-2012, 08:38 PM

Kingfisher and shaverjoe. Those lathers are very typical of what I get from MW. Very dense, creamy, stable lather. It reminds me of a cross between Institut Karite and Provence Sante with their lather properties. And skin pampering that is right on the same level. If I am not toolazy tomorrow I will snap a few shots of lily of the valley. Right now I would rate Mystic Water with its 4 plus ounce size as one of the values in wet shaving. For you lads with scent sensitive skin I think their unscented version is absolutely worth investigation.

Cheers, Todd

**JCinPA** · 04-01-2012, 08:42 PM

cvac, I'm not sure Michelle should be playing with the recipe just yet. I talked to Bkfist (Brian) for a long time yesterday and he is a big fan of this and the RazoRock Artisan Caprician Lemon. He, and the other guys are so pleased with this soap, and my shave results are so darn good, I think fiddling with this might not be indicated just yet. I think we all know what we are doing, I cannot think of anything other than the batch that could account for the different results.

Michelle, have you any idea if Brucered's, cvac's and my pucks were from the same batch? No, wait, they are different scents, right, they can't be. I have to go back and see what scents you guys have. Anyway, I am so taken by the results (and the scent) if I got Kingfisher's results, I would be soooo on board with this soap.

Kingfisher, and Shaverjoe, did you start getting results that good right out of the gate with this? Or did you find it a bit tricky at first?

**TheVez2** · 04-01-2012, 09:11 PM

Michelle has sent me about a dozen samples in different scents, including Lily of the Valley. So I think I can speak fairly well on using the product over several different batches. I have gotten consistent results from every one of them. All lather great.

**5savages** · 04-01-2012, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by TheVez2

Michelle has sent me about a dozen samples in different scents, including Lily of the Valley. So I think I can speak fairly well on using the product over several different batches. I have gotten consistent results from every one of them. All lather great.

I've tried 7 or 8 different samples and the performance if any one of them is indistinguishable from the others...all great. My initial 2 or 3 attempts to lather this soap gave me an easy lather, but I ran out by the third pass and it was dry. I then started adding more water and the problem was solved.

**TheVez2** · 04-01-2012, 10:19 PM

Not sure if you all saw these videos I posted earlier, but here is me face lathering and mug lathering MW soaps.

**shaverjoe** · 04-01-2012, 10:34 PM

Kingfisher, and Shaverjoe, did you start getting results that good right out of the gate with this? Or did you find it a bit tricky at first?

I have gotten these results from the get go. If someone were to review all my posts on B&B, one would find I am a crazy QCS fan. I have about 8 different creams and 4 different QCS soaps in my rotation. I like to support hobbyists/vendors on B&B so I was excited when MW soaps hit the forum. Michelle was kind enough to send me two different lime samples- lime&litsea and lime&ginger. Both produced great lathers-the same as in my posts above. I love to make super or uber lather, so when I ordered my soap from MW, I decided to go with the unscented version so I could pair it with all my QCS creams. I have yet to have a problem getting a very slick, very stable lather from Michelle's soap. I hated to read brucered had thrown in the towel because I think this is a really great soap. I hope your next experience with MW soap is more positive. All my shaves with MW soap have been great.

**sulkhogan** · 04-01-2012, 10:45 PM

MW is great stuff, still need to try some RR Artisan.

**cvac** · 04-02-2012, 04:23 AM

Thanks for posting your videos Vez. In the first one, that looks like very good lather, better than anything I've seen on here from this soap so far. Even with the samples being from different scents, that still might be a different batch than my tub/puck of Lime I have. So there could be batch differences between what you've got and what I have. Also, your face was dry in the video. When you wet your face a lot, then try to face lather with it, did you get the same results?

Also, my soap is very sticky and soft like wet cookie dough...sticks to your fingers when you mess with it...I had soapy sticky stuff all over my hand when I mashed it in the travel container. Is that how your soap samples have been guys?

JC, as far as the shave goes despite the lather breaking down...I can't shave like that with just a slick film on my skin...I need lather. My "slick film" MW shave was way less than enjoyable.

Gonna try my MW Lime one more time, probably on Saturday. After that if someone wants to dissect and distribute chunks of this puck for evaluation/detective work, let me know by PM. I'll get it mailed out to one of you guys after Saturday.

**TheVez2** · 04-02-2012, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by cvac

Thanks for posting your videos Vez. In the first one, that looks like very good lather, better than anything I've seen on here from this soap so far. Even with the samples being from different scents, that still might be a different batch than my tub/puck of Lime I have. So there could be batch differences between what you've got and what I have. Also, your face was dry in the video. When you wet your face a lot, then try to face lather with it, did you get the same results?

Yeah, I posted a link to those videos back on page 2, but nobody said anything about them, so I didn't know if anybody clicked on them. If I recall, I did wet my face a little for prep before I started that video. But I get consistant results, whether I splash water on my face prior to lathering or not. It's all about getting the right ratio of water in the end. If I start with more water on my face, then I have to add less water to get it right. If I have a drier face, then I add a bit more water.

Originally Posted by cvac

Also, my soap is very sticky and soft like wet cookie dough...sticks to your fingers when you mess with it...I had soapy sticky stuff all over my hand when I mashed it in the travel container. Is that how your soap samples have been guys?

Not quite how mine is. I'd say mine is the consistency of store bought cookie dough. Not overly sticky. I can handle the sample without getting much more than residue on my fingers, but if I press into it, then I get a little more. It is more dry on the outside than wet. I'm picturing a wet exterior based on your description. Has it been put away wet? I'd say leave it open and let it dry a bit.

I know everythign in this hobby is YMMV, but after seeign how easy it is to lather this soap, I'm amazed that people are having troubles with it. That is why I created my videos in the first place. To show what I was doing, in case others were doing something different. I think the number 1 problem people have with this soap, is adding (or starting out with) too much water. But that's just my hunch.

**JCinPA** · 04-02-2012, 05:06 AM

Great googly moogly, Vez is getting stunning results! There is no arguing with any of those lathers. Also, Shaverjoe, like me, is a HYOOGE QCS fan. His experience and mine cannot be that different, and so consistent to ourselves (his terrific, mine mediocre). I am still getting a great shave, though.

Cvac, like you I agree this stuff is gummier/stickier than any other product I have handled. That looked to not be the case with TheVez2's patty of soap. I am going to use it one or two more times, then I will sent my sample out for post mortem either to Michelle or Kingfisher/Shaverjoe, whichever she prefers. I would be more worried that I am screwing this up if it weren't for you and Brucered. But I am so perplexed by this ... Thanks for the vids, Vez! They are very helpful.

Off to shave with it. Again!

**k2clones29** · 04-02-2012, 05:51 AM

Based on a lot of these posts, I tried to lather my MW in a mug this morning. I got the disappearing effect JCinPA was talking about in his review. That is the first time it has happened to me. I get great lather when I load a dry brush, add a little water to the tips, re-lather on the puck, add water as needed, then face lather. It sounds to me like this soap is best built via face lathering.

I will also say that I don't get peaks in the pictures, but I do get a dense lather. Plus, even with today's thin lather, it still provided excellent lubrication for my shave (as was the case in the reviews). It is very odd that the ranges of lather are this extensive. I'm wondering if there's something to the batch theory.

**brucered** · 04-02-2012, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by k2clones29

Based on a lot of these posts, I tried to lather my MW in a mug this morning. I got the disappearing effect JCinPA was talking about in his review. That is the first time it has happened to me. I get great lather when I load a dry brush, add a little water to the tips, re-lather on the puck, add water as needed, then face lather. It sounds to me like this soap is best built via face lathering.

I will also say that I don't get peaks in the pictures, but I do get a dense lather. Plus, even with today's thin lather, it still provided excellent lubrication for my shave (as was the case in the reviews). It is very odd that the ranges of lather are this extensive. I'm wondering if there's something to the batch theory.

good to know. i had 1 successful shave, but had to keep reapply to my brush, and it was a face lathering shave as well. it was the only time i got thick lather from it.

**kingfisher** · 04-02-2012, 06:22 AM

John, I was a beta-tester for this soap, so I have tried all iterations leading to this product. Some of the earlier prototypes were difficult for me to lather.

I still remember the first time I lathered the sample puck that worked. I walked out of the bathroom after shaving with a big smile on my face. I told my wife, "She got it right this time." Since then, she has tweaked it a tiny bit, but I have never had any problem lathering this soap.

This morning I started with a too-wet brush, so I stayed on the puck longer until it thickened up. The end result lather was not quite as good as the one I got yesterday, but still pretty nice. I seem to get the best lathers starting with a slightly drier brush.

I'd be happy to get chunks of your soap or cvac's soap to see if I have the same problem with them that y'all are having.

**JCinPA** · 04-02-2012, 06:54 AM

Based on TheVez2's OUTSTANDING videos, I mimicked his mug lather exactly. Drier brush, 30 socond load, added water slowly. I got an OK lather bordering between fair/good, and it held up better than earlier ones, but was still prone to dissipating albeit more slowly. I asked Michelle if she wants my puck 'back in the lab' or if she wants me to send it to one of you guys for a post mortem.

I GOT A TERRIFIC SHAVE AGAIN! DFS, no issues with tugging, skipping, burn, great glide, the Pinaud Clubman gave me the briefest of quick burns when applied, better than I usually get, face feels terrific. Badger again, no hot water in the scuttle, used like a bowl. Face feels terrific right now. This is a great shaver, no doubt about it, at least for me.

But lathering this puck like you or TheVez2 are is a physical impossibility with mine. I can't figure out why. This puck will go where Michelle directs for further testing.

Boy, the more I use it, the more hooked I get on the scent. I may not be able to use anything else, if I use this another few days.

**cvac** · 04-02-2012, 07:12 AM

Guys, if you look at my thread I tried all ranges of water quantity, even loading with a dry brush.

Like I said, I do wet my face a lot before and between face lathers...that is a non-negotiable for me and something I'm not going to modify for any soap or cream. I can't shave without doing that, and 99% of the products I've tried tolerate it fine.

The soap was like wet sticky cookie dough when I got it...after test lathers BUT before the first shave, I let it sit out overnight and it had dried completely.

**brucered** · 04-02-2012, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by cvac

Guys, if you look at my thread I tried all ranges of water quantity, even loading with a dry brush.

Like I said, I do wet my face a lot before and between face lathers...that is a non-negotiable for me and something I'm not going to modify for any soap or cream. I can't shave without doing that, and 99% of the products I've tried tolerate it fine.

The soap was like wet sticky cookie dough when I got it...after test lathers BUT before the first shave, I let it sit out overnight and it had dried completely.

agreed and i do the same. bowl lather or face lather, i use sink water to rinse off my face between passes. i used QCS this morning, with my scuttle and normal application process (1min or so, lots of water) and had no issues.

my soap is the same consistency as your was "cvac"

**JCinPA** · 04-02-2012, 08:55 AM

I am sending mine back to Michelle to play with. Since we are all in the same boat, my soap should be enough for her to do a post mortem on.

**kingfisher** · 04-02-2012, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by JCinPA

I am sending mine back to Michelle to play with. Since we are all in the same boat, my soap should be enough for her to do a post mortem on.

Dang it! I was looking forward to seeing whether I could coax a nice lather out of this soap. I really want to know whether the problem is the soap or the latherer.