Lapping film, try it.

Hey ! I'm back with good news, at least for me. Today i tried again on 0.3u just to practice my moves, and after more than 100 laps, i tested the blade and wow, i think i have an HHT 3 or 4 all over the blade.
I paid very much attention to keep both the spine and the blade in contact with the film.
So my scond honing session was a scucces.
Now i feel better
Cheers !

Well done Catalin,
It gets better the more razors you hone

Thanks Leigh !

Now someone please send me a dozen razors or so, i will send them back after a while

I seem to tilt the razor all the time, having trouble to get an smooth consistent lap during my try s. Guess that's the main factor on why i don't get it to work. After my third try i got it hht on 12 um on the heel part only but after trying to improve it i lost it. Cant be more eager to get my scopes so i can get the bevel examined. Looks to be a nice bearded summer here.

redbreast said:

I seem to tilt the razor all the time, having trouble to get an smooth consistent lap during my try s. Guess that's the main factor on why i don't get it to work. After my third try i got it hht on 12 um on the heel part only but after trying to improve it i lost it. Cant be more eager to get my scopes so i can get the bevel examined. Looks to be a nice bearded summer here.

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Are you holding your plate in your hand, loosely, so that the razor and the plate can find their own alignment, or are you laying the plate down on a workbench? The bench method is preferred by many experienced honers but I feel that best results are to be had from holding the plate in hand, especially for a beginner.

i use a rather big plate of glass so it is lying on the kitchen countertop. I also feel that i tend to be less stable with one hand only. I really try to use one finger light press on the blade aswell but at the end of each lap i screw it up. Give it some more practise i reckon.

Btw i just want to say thanks for your newerending effort in ths thread slash. Thanks for putting up with all them questions.

-Update-
So i found this small piece of glass making it able to hold the film in onehand. Started all over at 12um again. Doing one sided laps until i got burr on both sides. After doing 50 normal laps i went on with 9um. Slowly i felt the edge getting sharper. After 60 laps on 9 i hade rather smooth armhair shaving and actually moving down one or two hair when a bit elevated. But this was just at the heel of the blade. Toe seems to be significant more dull. Or less sharp perhaps.
Is there a way to correct this problem. Also, the razor is not a hollow,i belive its more of a wedge so is there something diffrent i have to think about?

You got to raise a burr along the full length of the blade. Make sure that it extends all the way to the nose. If you are getting a burr the whole length of the blade, and you are removing it completely, with good honing technique, well, we are missing something here. This method is almost guaranteed to give you a good bevel. We got to figure out why it isn't working. Something is getting left out somewhere.

One good diagnostic tool is a sharpie marker or some other type of felt tip marking pen. Paint the entire bevel with ink. It will dry in seconds. Then give the razor one normal lap, to you and away. Then examine the bevel under a bright light, preferably with a magnifying glass. Where the ink remains and where it is removed with that one lap will tell you a lot about your honing. Obviously, where ink remains, the blade is not making good contact with the film, right? So you got to MAKE it make contact.

Post a pic of your razor. If it is a full wedge, then a somewhat different technique is used. A near wedge or 1/4 hollow can be honed normally just like any other hollowground razor.

On your next attempt, on both the "to" stroke and the "away" stroke, rest a finger on the blade, about halfway between edge and spine, and about 2/3 of the way out to the nose. The idea is to shift the center of pressure in an effort to prioritize the nose or toe of the razor. Even with light pressure, WHERE the pressure is centered, can make a big difference.

I gave the razor a bit of an examination. Found out that about 1 cm of the bevel at the toe was not in contact with film during the laps. THe other side hade contact with the film. Also looks like the bevel is a bit wavy, not the same width along the hole edge.
Thing is that I did two razors, and both of them didn't perform any HHT at any time, not even after wetted paper on 1um but still tree topped armhair with some ease. So after wetted paper I put it on Crox/denim and denim and later leather strop. And tried to shave. The one I suspect I warped gave an horrible shave but the other one gave me a good one. Rather smooth and No burn at all.
Try to get a decent picture later, only got crappy iPhone pics. I'm gonna give the bevel some ink later on.

Hello,
I'm back Today i honed again. I started from the 5 micron film. What i noticed is: i don't get any HHT until 1 micron film. After the 1u film i get HHT3 or 4 i'm not sure, is very hard form me to say if it's 3 or 4.
Is this normal?

redbreast said:

I gave the razor a bit of an examination. Found out that about 1 cm of the bevel at the toe was not in contact with film during the laps. THe other side hade contact with the film. Also looks like the bevel is a bit wavy, not the same width along the hole edge.
Thing is that I did two razors, and both of them didn't perform any HHT at any time, not even after wetted paper on 1um but still tree topped armhair with some ease. So after wetted paper I put it on Crox/denim and denim and later leather strop. And tried to shave. The one I suspect I warped gave an horrible shave but the other one gave me a good one. Rather smooth and No burn at all.
Try to get a decent picture later, only got crappy iPhone pics. I'm gonna give the bevel some ink later on.

Click to expand...

Ah. That is why you must stay on your bevel setter until you raise a burr along the ENTIRE edge, full length, on both sides. Also it sounds like possibly when doing one side, you are applying pressure at the heel. This is a very common beginner mistake. When stroking one way, emphasis is applied to the heel or the nose. Then on the other stroke, going the other way, maybe different emphasis. This is largely eliminated if you hold your plate or stone loosely in your left hand. That is why I always recommend doing so, and not laying the plate flat on a workbench or table.

Are you certain that your lapping plate is flat? Here is a quick and dirty test: ink up the bevel with a sharpie marker. Do one or two laps on the film. Examine the bevel and observe the areas where ink remains. Now remove the film, rotate your plate 180 degrees and re-apply the film. Re-ink your bevel and hone a lap or two. Examine the wear pattern in the ink. If it is different, then you have flatness issues in your plate, possibly.

Your blade could be warped, but more likely it suffers from what I call "honing induced warp". That is when a lot of honing has been done on a blade by one person and there was a consistent twisting or tilting force, or unbalanced pressure on the honing surface. Your hand has a certain muscle memory, or signature, that you use when you hone. Your hand weighs a pound or two and you are trying to apply a force of a couple of grams with it, and balance it out with some precision. This light touch is perhaps the hardest part of honing to learn for some people. When the plate or stone is resting on a hard, unyielding surface of a workbench, unbalanced pressure has no outlet except into the honing action on the blade. With the plate held in hand, it is sort of floating in midair, and the blade and hone can find their own alignment. There is give and take. That is why I recommend holding the plate in hand.

I do believe you will have to go back to your bevel setter again. One word of caution... we mustn't do this too many more times. It induces a lot of wear into the blade, reducing its width and causing geometry issues. If you are having problems balancing the honing pressure, then this must be addressed and not allowed to continue, which would simply perpetuate the problem. On your bevel setter, you must raise the burr along the full, entire length of the edge, and on both sides. Lay a finger on the blade as you do your half-laps. This finger is how you will adjust the balance of your honing pressure. If the finger is near the edge, it is putting more pressure on the edge. Near the spine, more on the spine. And most significantly in regard to your problem, nearer the nose sends more pressure that way. Keep your pressure balanced between edge and spine. Do not give in to the temptation to just zero in on the nose. Adjust your pressure outward toward the nose, on the side that is giving you problems.

Does your razor by any chance have a smiling or curving edge? This can be dealt with by either eliminating the curve, or just dealing with it by slightly rocking the blade from heel to toe as you hone.

I know you are probably getting frustrated with this razor, but if you hang in there, and completely perform each step before progressing to the next, you will prevail. It is extremely rare, in fact nearly impossible, to find a razor that simply cannot be honed. Now, all the funny guys are going to post pics of razors with 1/2" chips in the blade but seriously, nearly all razors of decent steel can be honed and "problem razors" with issues left by the previous owner's years and years of bad honing can be fixed. It must begin at the beginning, with setting the bevel. Address your own pressure and balance issues, and do what you got to do to raise a burr along the entire edge with no gaps, on one side and then the other, and then fully remove the burr and your bevel is set. Without the bevel, you have no edge... just a thin piece of steel. You simply cannot make a razor sharp on 1u film if the bevel is not there. The bevel faces must fully intersect, which is where your edge is. No intersection, no edge.

Bottom line. Your mission: create a perfect full length bevel. Verify it with your sharpie marker and visual examination under a bright light. Nothing less than perfection and completion can be accepted. Everything starts with the bevel. Nothing can happen without the bevel. It is all about the bevel. The bevel. The bevel. The bev...........................................................................

I'm giving up. Tried for what feels to be the hundredth time already. Getting the feel for it, strokes getting smoother, less pressure, less tilt. But now it does not tree top armhair, Nor does it perform HHT.

Throwing in the towel, at least until I get them ordered scopes so I can watch what's going on. Just happy that I got one done yesterday so I don't have to go zz top this summer.

BCN said:

Hey ! I'm back with good news, at least for me. Today i tried again on 0.3u just to practice my moves, and after more than 100 laps, i tested the blade and wow, i think i have an HHT 3 or 4 all over the blade.
I paid very much attention to keep both the spine and the blade in contact with the film.
So my scond honing session was a scucces.
Now i feel better
Cheers !

Click to expand...

HHT3 with a 0.3 micron film? i can get much better results with my coticule.
Lapping films confuse me. 0.5 micron is about 30k or better right?
so HHT3-4 is not a success

linguist said:

HHT3 with a 0.3 micron film? i can get much better results with my coticule.
Lapping films confuse me. 0.5 micron is about 30k or better right?
so HHT3-4 is not a success

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Really? Wow, I'm going to throw my film away and buy a coticule.



HHT (for however useful that "test" really is) a 3 or 4 is not bad at all for a new honer. It's quite a comfortable shave and plenty for a lot of people. More can be too harsh. Furthermore, the films cost a smidgen of what the fancy coticule did. You are knocking something which you state you don't even understand.

linguist said:

HHT3 with a 0.3 micron film? i can get much better results with my coticule.
Lapping films confuse me. 0.5 micron is about 30k or better right?
so HHT3-4 is not a success

Click to expand...

Didn't realize it was a contest. If so, then I guess you win?

This thread is dedicated to those that choose to use the lapping films as a very nice alternative to what can be RIDICULOUSLY expensive rocks (not bashing the use of natural stones, this just isn't the thread for them). Not to mention the fact that there are several newbies that are here and are struggling. With the assistance of people like Slash and others, many have turned the corner just through the course of this thread and I have no doubt that with enough patience all who enter here can become accomplished at honing and maintaining there own razors.

BCN is a perfect example (the very man you so smugly shot down). He had some trouble, got some advice, and was very pleased with his progress. Only to have you come in and tell him it was not successful. VERY poor taste.

Congratulations on being the ultimate authority on everything.

redbreast said:

I'm giving up. Tried for what feels to be the hundredth time already. Getting the feel for it, strokes getting smoother, less pressure, less tilt. But now it does not tree top armhair, Nor does it perform HHT.

Throwing in the towel, at least until I get them ordered scopes so I can watch what's going on. Just happy that I got one done yesterday so I don't have to go zz top this summer.

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Don't feel bad about it, I remember that razor when I first honed it for you & it was a tad warped. That in combination with the very hard steel those old Swedes have, its certainly not the easiest candidate. My offer still stands if you want it re-honed. Look around Tradera for a full hollow Swede or Solingen, it will be so much easier to learn on.

Lapping film does given great results. I is easier to use than a coticule or a JNAT. It is harder to use than my naniwa set 5, 8 and 12k.
The results are Smoother FOR ME than the naniwa. If I need to hone something and I'm being lazy I'll hone it on the naniwas and finish on the one micron film.

If I want to enjoy and take my time then it's either a coticule finished on oil on a full nagura JNAT progression.

Having said that films do lack mojo.

redbreast said:

I'm giving up. Tried for what feels to be the hundredth time already. Getting the feel for it, strokes getting smoother, less pressure, less tilt. But now it does not tree top armhair, Nor does it perform HHT.

Throwing in the towel, at least until I get them ordered scopes so I can watch what's going on. Just happy that I got one done yesterday so I don't have to go zz top this summer.

Click to expand...

If only you knew how many freaking strokes I did on how many different friggin' razors and stones and set ups and contraptions before I got a shave ready blade. Then, if you just knew how much more I did and went through and experienced and tried to get a shave ready blade I actually liked. Truth is, looking back, it's quite simple. But, you cannot realize that until you get through all the muck. Hang in there. The day you put a blade to your face that you honed and you light up with a cheesy grin saying oh hell yeah, it makes it all worthwhile.

i read all the posts in this threat and some wrote that they got HHT2-3-4 whatever from 1 to 0,3 micron. i try to understand these lapping films not to argue here. is there a grit problem with the films? i aspect the results like shapton 16k or 30k but i understand that these films are far away from honing stones.

Getting close on nailing that offer honed. Got a couple full hollow missing scales laying around the house. Maybe finishing up them to practice on. The thing that buggers me the most is that sometimes its there, the sharpness, and when trying to just keep the same routine it's suddenly gone. I know I sometimes screw up with lifting the spine and goes back to 12um.
Just trying to get to understand that nano-margin that differs right from wrong.

linguist said:

HHT3 with a 0.3 micron film? i can get much better results with my coticule.
Lapping films confuse me. 0.5 micron is about 30k or better right?
so HHT3-4 is not a success

Click to expand...

Somehow, I am not surprised that lapping film confuses you.

A newbie getting a strong HHT3 result is good in anybody's book, regardless of the method used. And I am sure he was quite pleased with his first shave from that edge. If he took a dull razor and made it shave well, then that was indeed a success. So you normally get better than HHT4 from your coticule? I think even our coticule addicts here are probably wondering about that. Perhaps you might review just exactly what the HHT ratings mean, and the accepted manner of performing the HHT test, and last but not least, the usual disclaimers about the subjectivity of the HHT due to different hands and different hair textures.

Your post seems very negative, somehow. FWIW, most coticule users who try films still enjoy honing on their coticules, but few if any will claim that their coti actually gives a better edge than film. If lapping film didn't confuse you, perhaps you would try it and agree.

So I have to disagree. BCN's first film-honed razor, in fact I believe his first ever honed razor by any means, was in fact a success, and one he should take pride in.