I used to have the same issue then changed my technique on the leather. My edge lasts longer now and I'm getting better shaves. Took me bit of experimenting and some choice 4 letter words but I eventually figured it out.
Lapping film, try it.
- Thread starter Blix
- Start date
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Maybe you just like the toothiness of a fresh edge? A hanging leather strop, properly used, should not mess up your edge at all. Are you using some x-stroke action? Is there any cupping? Have you tried a different strop? Is the edge falling off along its entire length, or just part of it? Keeping the strop nice and tight?
Try a different strop. Try swapping ends wit the same strop. Try not using the linen.
Try a different strop. Try swapping ends wit the same strop. Try not using the linen.
I do like the edge sharp. I prefer the edge off lapping film on the plate - no picopaper underneath.
No X stroke, strop is 3" wide made by a well respected member of this group, only strop I have - for the moment..
No cupping, strop is tight and clean, edge is falling off over the entire length.
No paste.. clean stop, fairly new..
Curious as to what you changed?
It's stupid actually. I was holding both the nylon and the leather while I stroped. For some reason this didn't seem to have any negative effect on my ability to strop on the nylon but I had all kinds of trouble on the leather. One day while trying to improve my technique I just dropped the nylon strap and the clouds lifted. Also I began flipping my razor onto the spine as I changed directions on the strop. This virtually eliminated the nics I was putting in my strop and helped me get the edge I was looking for. I realize now that holding both stropping materials was the key for me...something I ought to have figured out much sooner then I did.
I might just try this with my great-grandfather's razor! I'll practice with a couple junk store razors first.
I actually had a similar problem. Holding by the D rings my leather stop is a hair longer than the linen stop, so when I pulled both tight, the leather was still a little loose.
I'm a lefty and for some reason flipping on the edge was more natural than flipping on the spine. I have since re-trained my motor skills..
I may have figured out my issue. Although I strop linen before leather, my stop had quite a buildup of residue. A good cleaning, allowed it to dry and a couple of drops of neatsfoot oil rubbed in with my palm seems to have returned it to like new condition. Stropped my razor last night after finishing on lapping film and it has a wicked edge. Shave test Saturday!
Just reporting in.
I am a total newb when it comes to honing, as I have never tried it...
I got a SR from Whipped Dog some time ago. I guess I have mastered shaving with it, having no problem with the shaving to be honest. Last time I shaved it was tugging and did not feel as sharp as when I got it from Larry. So I gave film a shot.
I did 60 laps on 3um, 60 laps on 1um and 30 laps on 1um with the famous picopaper. Then I did about 20 x-strokes on a coticule which I was so fortunate to win in a PIF by a gentleman [MENTION=63605]TimS[/MENTION].
I probably did the laps and strokes with terrible technique, but according to my shave afterwards the edge is now back alive! I cant wait for my razor to get dull again.
I am a total newb when it comes to honing, as I have never tried it...
I got a SR from Whipped Dog some time ago. I guess I have mastered shaving with it, having no problem with the shaving to be honest. Last time I shaved it was tugging and did not feel as sharp as when I got it from Larry. So I gave film a shot.
I did 60 laps on 3um, 60 laps on 1um and 30 laps on 1um with the famous picopaper. Then I did about 20 x-strokes on a coticule which I was so fortunate to win in a PIF by a gentleman [MENTION=63605]TimS[/MENTION].
I probably did the laps and strokes with terrible technique, but according to my shave afterwards the edge is now back alive! I cant wait for my razor to get dull again.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Congratulations!
Next time, instead of counting laps, try to detect the feedback from the film. When it starts to feel sticky and suction-y, (we call this "stiction") continue another dozen very light laps and then move to the next grit. And as for the picopaper, try to max out the 1u without it first, and then use paper for a final half dozen laps. The edge will be much keener but still have that tiny bit of convexity at the apex that makes for a smooth shave. Another trick is to do an additional 3 or 4 "pull strokes", where you carefully pull the razor sideways off the edge of the film, about a half inch to an inch. This clears any fin edge that may have formed.
The most common newbie mistake IMHO when seeking the ultimate edge is honing with the plate resting on something solid. Much better to hold the plate in your off hand while honing, so it is like floating in space. Then, the razor and film can find their own perfect alignment and pressure balance. It makes an incredible difference. You can moderate your pressure much more accurately and you have far better control.
When you finish on coticule after 1u film, you are going backwards several grits. If you just want a smoother edge, you can certainly finish on coti but you may as well skip the 1u film altogether. Just go straight from 3u to coticule with clear water and bobs yer uncle.
@Slash McCoy: Thanks alot for the feedback. It is mainly due to your posts that I even tried films.
I actually did feel feedback going to 1u from 3u, it felt like the razor was glued to the film and I was almost having trouble doing laps with good technique. Even worse when going to 1u with picopaper. I didnt know if it was normal, but now I know why it happens and what I should do, thank you!
I did, of course, hone with the plate resting on something solid, but I found it hard to be honest. I held the coticule in my hand doing x-strokes and that was much easier. I will have to get a smaller plate that I can hold in my hand.
I had no idea the coticule was corser than 1u though, I guess that was stupid. Would you get the same feedback going from 3u to a coticule, with regards to stiction?
Again, thank you for your feedback.
Also, how should I explain to SWMBO that I NEED more razors and a bevel setter? That is more difficult than honing to be honest.
I actually did feel feedback going to 1u from 3u, it felt like the razor was glued to the film and I was almost having trouble doing laps with good technique. Even worse when going to 1u with picopaper. I didnt know if it was normal, but now I know why it happens and what I should do, thank you!
I did, of course, hone with the plate resting on something solid, but I found it hard to be honest. I held the coticule in my hand doing x-strokes and that was much easier. I will have to get a smaller plate that I can hold in my hand.
I had no idea the coticule was corser than 1u though, I guess that was stupid. Would you get the same feedback going from 3u to a coticule, with regards to stiction?
Again, thank you for your feedback.
Also, how should I explain to SWMBO that I NEED more razors and a bevel setter? That is more difficult than honing to be honest.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Coticules vary widely on their feedback. Most will give you some, though, when you have really maxed it out. Some more, some less. You have to familiarize yourself with your coti and that can take a while. Where the film is very consistent, the coti is very individualistic. Even from the same vein.
You really only need a bevel setter if you set a lot of bevels. For occasional use, just use sandpaper glued to your lapping film plate. Use a very light application of 3m or loctite spray adhesve. Use acetone to clean up the glue residue before using it wit film again. Most brands of cheap nail polish remover are nothing but acetone with maybe a little fragrance. Very convenient sized container. And the nice thing about sandpaper is you have your choice of grits. For instance you could go as coarse as 100 grit in the initial stages of repair on a badly chipped or poorly honed blade, then progress up to 1k as the bevel begins to form in good steel. Or you could even start finer, say 2500 grit, for one that already has a pretty good bevel but you just want to be sure about it. It doesn't make sense to drop big bucks on a rock you might only use a dozen times. The bevel should never need to be reset once you have set it once.
But yes, you need more razors. Tell her Slash said so. You could start out demanding razors and a bevel setter, then compromise on the bevel setter for an additional razor or two. And btw, count her pairs of shoes before she asks you why you need so many razors. Been there, done that.
Offer to shave her legs with a straight, with scented candles, champagne, etc. It helps. Unless she is scared by the whole idea.
After reading all 2334 posts on this thread, I decided to opine. I am not a newb, just low post count. Was a rock rubber for some time, 325 diamond plate up to Naniwa 12000. Recently went to lapping film, which I had previously used for other things. Good results. I offer a slightly different approach than Slash. Holding the substrate in the off hand is a good technique; however, I have MS, peripheral nephritis and arthritis so holding with the off hand is not an option. My technique is using a 1 X board on my lap and a well broken broken in and finely lapped Surgical Arkansas Black 8 X 3 in a holder.Film goes on nicely. My technique is to hold handle loosely in the dominant hand for direction and push using thumb and index finger to gently move the razor down the stone. Pressure is controlled by the off hand and can be high for bevel setting like a butterfly landing for finishing on 0.3 µ over copy paper.
Set the bevel on a relatively new Dovo Best and a nice Jacques LeCoultre using 15µ for bevel setting using both marker and burr. Worked down through 9µ 5µ 3µ 1µ and 1µ over paper. Stropped Dovo on 50 yo carborundum with CrOx, plain horsehide, linen finishing on Latigo. The LeCoultre was stropped on horsehide then Latigo. Then lapped a circa 1850 Wade and Butcher road grader wedge starting with 3µ then 1 µ and 1µ over paper. Finished on linen then Latigo. Next up was a Larry Whipped Dog 11/16 near wedge. Started with 3µ all the way down but used all four strop types.
Prior to shaving, I palm stropped all razors. The Dovo was fairly smooth and gave a DFS, nearly BBS shave. Next up was the LeCoultre for neck hollows. It was smoother and maybe marginally sharper. Today I used the W & B. Smooth but only gave a low end DFS. Used the Whipped Dog around mouth and chin. Smoother and slightly sharper.
Note there are no interim tests. Setting the bevel offers visual and tactile (feel burr with fingernail). Subsequent grits were evaluated on stiction.and visual inspection of the edge. With very light pressure of the off hand there is enough feedback to determine progress. I don't use HHT, microscope or loupes (I have 200X and 400X microscopes and numerous loupes). I just haven't been able to correlate results and displays to a shave standard. What I can do is evaluate MY shave. So a completed shave is my test.
My other differing opinion (from Seraphim) is use of tape during honing. I have 3 stubbies ranging from 1790 to 1810 that have narrow spines and the smile is almost 6/8.To protect these historical items, I feel that one layer is almost mandatory. Any thoughts on how to hone these treasures?
Set the bevel on a relatively new Dovo Best and a nice Jacques LeCoultre using 15µ for bevel setting using both marker and burr. Worked down through 9µ 5µ 3µ 1µ and 1µ over paper. Stropped Dovo on 50 yo carborundum with CrOx, plain horsehide, linen finishing on Latigo. The LeCoultre was stropped on horsehide then Latigo. Then lapped a circa 1850 Wade and Butcher road grader wedge starting with 3µ then 1 µ and 1µ over paper. Finished on linen then Latigo. Next up was a Larry Whipped Dog 11/16 near wedge. Started with 3µ all the way down but used all four strop types.
Prior to shaving, I palm stropped all razors. The Dovo was fairly smooth and gave a DFS, nearly BBS shave. Next up was the LeCoultre for neck hollows. It was smoother and maybe marginally sharper. Today I used the W & B. Smooth but only gave a low end DFS. Used the Whipped Dog around mouth and chin. Smoother and slightly sharper.
Note there are no interim tests. Setting the bevel offers visual and tactile (feel burr with fingernail). Subsequent grits were evaluated on stiction.and visual inspection of the edge. With very light pressure of the off hand there is enough feedback to determine progress. I don't use HHT, microscope or loupes (I have 200X and 400X microscopes and numerous loupes). I just haven't been able to correlate results and displays to a shave standard. What I can do is evaluate MY shave. So a completed shave is my test.
My other differing opinion (from Seraphim) is use of tape during honing. I have 3 stubbies ranging from 1790 to 1810 that have narrow spines and the smile is almost 6/8.To protect these historical items, I feel that one layer is almost mandatory. Any thoughts on how to hone these treasures?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Nice going, Traf!
Now me, I don't like messing with wedges. But when I do, I pretty much always use tape. The natural bevel angle of most any full wedge is far too acute, and when the entire side of the razor basically is the bevel, "proper" honing becomes an epic task. So, I set the primary bevel with a layer of tape, or two layers if one isn't enough. The primary bevel can be a little too acute, no big deal, since I always make a compound bevel on a wedge. The more acute, the wider the bevel surface, though. Often this primary bevel results in a lot of steel being ground away. Form must follow function, if the tool is to work well. I take the primary bevel all the way out to my finisher. The reason for this is I only go a dozen laps or so, with the finisher, on the secondary bevel, and deep scratches in the primary bevel can show up in the secondary bevel and even into the apex, if only coarse abrasive is used for the primary bevel and only a few light laps of the finisher with a single additional layer of tape are used for the secondary.
This results in a very wide primary bevel and a tiny microbevel for the secondary. What is nice about that, is because the secondary bevel is the only part that really matters, only the secondary needs to be refreshed. The very small secondary touches up with just a few laps of the finisher, and using only those few laps helps to keep the secondary bevel small. Win/win. So the real work is the bevel setting, and the progression on the primary bevel. Touchups are as simple, sometimes even more simple, than touchups on most hollowgrounds. The acute primary bevel helps to increase cutting power, but does not topple because the secondary bevel is at a more robust angle.
After much use and many many touchups, the secondary becomes wider, and the advantages of the microbevel are lost. When this happens, time to reset the primary bevel again, and set a whole new secondary bevel with just a few laps as before. Depending on how much the razor is used, this could take many many years, though.
Now I have been accused of over-thinking wedge honing. Slash, no wonder you hate honing wedges! Just HONE them and don't try to make rocket surgery out of them! Unfortunately the compound bevel is the logical way to hone a full wedge. I simply can't see doing it any other way. Getting a good apex on a gigantic simple bevel is not easy at all.
The practical reasons are why I hone a wedge, or even a near wedge, with tape. It is a tool, and it makes no sense to me to have a tool underperform simply because I would rather have it look its best, even look unused, than to work at peak efficiency once and for ever. There are others who feel just the opposite, and tape for cosmetic reasons, and that is fine. Your razor.
I will point out that electrical tape was not invented until 1946 and probably never got stuck onto a razor spine until quite recently. Long after the wedge razor began to lose popularity to the more easily honed hollowgrounds. Apparently wedges were once honed freehand, lifting the spine, at least for setting the bevel. Thinking about how hard it is to do this freehand with the customary level of precision offered by a hollowground spine gives me headaches. I don't posess that level of skill, which is why I think about it and apply a bit of logic rather than just HONE the darn thing. Anyway, I tape a wedge, too. I just do it for different reasons than you did.
Now me, I don't like messing with wedges. But when I do, I pretty much always use tape. The natural bevel angle of most any full wedge is far too acute, and when the entire side of the razor basically is the bevel, "proper" honing becomes an epic task. So, I set the primary bevel with a layer of tape, or two layers if one isn't enough. The primary bevel can be a little too acute, no big deal, since I always make a compound bevel on a wedge. The more acute, the wider the bevel surface, though. Often this primary bevel results in a lot of steel being ground away. Form must follow function, if the tool is to work well. I take the primary bevel all the way out to my finisher. The reason for this is I only go a dozen laps or so, with the finisher, on the secondary bevel, and deep scratches in the primary bevel can show up in the secondary bevel and even into the apex, if only coarse abrasive is used for the primary bevel and only a few light laps of the finisher with a single additional layer of tape are used for the secondary.
This results in a very wide primary bevel and a tiny microbevel for the secondary. What is nice about that, is because the secondary bevel is the only part that really matters, only the secondary needs to be refreshed. The very small secondary touches up with just a few laps of the finisher, and using only those few laps helps to keep the secondary bevel small. Win/win. So the real work is the bevel setting, and the progression on the primary bevel. Touchups are as simple, sometimes even more simple, than touchups on most hollowgrounds. The acute primary bevel helps to increase cutting power, but does not topple because the secondary bevel is at a more robust angle.
After much use and many many touchups, the secondary becomes wider, and the advantages of the microbevel are lost. When this happens, time to reset the primary bevel again, and set a whole new secondary bevel with just a few laps as before. Depending on how much the razor is used, this could take many many years, though.
Now I have been accused of over-thinking wedge honing. Slash, no wonder you hate honing wedges! Just HONE them and don't try to make rocket surgery out of them! Unfortunately the compound bevel is the logical way to hone a full wedge. I simply can't see doing it any other way. Getting a good apex on a gigantic simple bevel is not easy at all.
The practical reasons are why I hone a wedge, or even a near wedge, with tape. It is a tool, and it makes no sense to me to have a tool underperform simply because I would rather have it look its best, even look unused, than to work at peak efficiency once and for ever. There are others who feel just the opposite, and tape for cosmetic reasons, and that is fine. Your razor.
I will point out that electrical tape was not invented until 1946 and probably never got stuck onto a razor spine until quite recently. Long after the wedge razor began to lose popularity to the more easily honed hollowgrounds. Apparently wedges were once honed freehand, lifting the spine, at least for setting the bevel. Thinking about how hard it is to do this freehand with the customary level of precision offered by a hollowground spine gives me headaches. I don't posess that level of skill, which is why I think about it and apply a bit of logic rather than just HONE the darn thing. Anyway, I tape a wedge, too. I just do it for different reasons than you did.
Slash,
Didn't use tape on the W&B near wedge for touchup. When I know how the bevel was set, I let it be my guide. I am working on an Elliot near wedge that will require setting a new bevel. That one will need at least one layer of tape to start the hone. This has been an enjoyable thread.
Didn't use tape on the W&B near wedge for touchup. When I know how the bevel was set, I let it be my guide. I am working on an Elliot near wedge that will require setting a new bevel. That one will need at least one layer of tape to start the hone. This has been an enjoyable thread.
[FONT="]Well, it was a Rodgers, pretty bad shape showing signs of a previous regrind. Its between [/FONT]¼ [FONT="]hollow and near wedge. Have had to go back to 60 grit three times, now up to 240 greaseless. Put a bevel on it to make sure it would hold an edge and show good metal. The horn scales are in bad shape, delamination, etc., so I will have to drill out pivot pin and soak in neatsfoot. I thought it would be a quick restoration until I looked closely. Guess it will be a week or more gring sanding polishing and waiting for the scales to plump up.[/FONT]
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
Don't buy lapping paper. Buy lapping film. Lapping film. Practice pronouncing and spelling it. Accept no substitutes. Lapping Film. If it doesn't say Lapping Film then it probably is not lapping film and will probably not be suitable.
Even .3u film can be difficult to use, without picopaper underneath. I have no idea whether you could make film that is 6x finer work or not. Try it and see, but I will not step out on a limb and recommend anything finer than 1u. For a finer edge, I recommend lapped balsa, to which a very very minute quantity of diamond paste has been applied. Look for my pasted balsa strop thread. There are plenty of testimonials on the board regarding my edges, and I owe it all to properly set up and properly used diamond on balsa. I am no honing genius. The stuff just works, and a child could do it.
To put it into perspective, a well executed 1u edge can deliver a very nice shave. A .5u edge can be percieved as harsh. A .1u diamond edge is sometimes regarded as simply too sharp, by those who believe that there is such a thing. A .5u edge probably would be overkill even if you could find the groove and nail down a perfect technique.
However, don't let that stop you. Many times here, we do stuff just to push the boundaries and see what happens or just show off a bit. So feel free to do it like you feel it. I'm just saying it isn't needed and getting it to work well might take a lot of experimentationalism.
One thing about odd grits or diamond abrasive lapping films, though... sometimes you can't get it in full size sheets. One of the advantages of film is you can set yourself up with a huge honing area and take a really long stroke with the entire edge on or over the medium. If all you can get is silly little 6" squares or circles, I say give it a miss.
Similar threads
