Lapping film, try it.

beginner with a Solingen Dovo straight and some lapping film (3 and a 1). I'm not sure if i'm just doing this wrong or what I should expect but I don't seem to be getting my razor any where near as sharp as my disposable, straight blades or my double edge razor blades. Is this just how it is with a straight or do I need a more aggressive micron film? How sharp can I expect my razor to get once I am honing/sharpening correctly? I have already shaved with it, it worked but was a little rougher then I would prefer. Tugging and on my second pass (WTG) I was nicking myself pretty frequently. I was also trying a cold water shave for the first time. Maybe too many variables to attempt at one time. I appreciate any help or suggestions you good folks have to offer.

Thanks,

Tim

Hello there is a bit we need to know. Was the razor truly shave ready, where you bought it, did you strop before the shave. As much pertinent info so we can see whats what. Regarding sharp as a de blade, thats very subjective as many straights are in the range but are much smoother.

taverre said:

beginner with a Solingen Dovo straight and some lapping film (3 and a 1). I'm not sure if i'm just doing this wrong or what I should expect but I don't seem to be getting my razor any where near as sharp as my disposable, straight blades or my double edge razor blades. Is this just how it is with a straight or do I need a more aggressive micron film? How sharp can I expect my razor to get once I am honing/sharpening correctly? I have already shaved with it, it worked but was a little rougher then I would prefer. Tugging and on my second pass (WTG) I was nicking myself pretty frequently. I was also trying a cold water shave for the first time. Maybe too many variables to attempt at one time. I appreciate any help or suggestions you good folks have to offer.

Thanks,

Tim

Click to expand...

Sharp starts at the bevel. If the bevel is good, touching up with 3um and 1um film will be capable of a very good edge on par IMO with a DE blade. If the bevel is not right, nothing you do short of setting the bevel will be very good.

taverre said:

beginner with a Solingen Dovo straight and some lapping film (3 and a 1). I'm not sure if i'm just doing this wrong or what I should expect but I don't seem to be getting my razor any where near as sharp as my disposable, straight blades or my double edge razor blades.

Click to expand...

Beginner at shaving with a straight, or beginner honing? Or both?

So I have been shaving with a disposable blade straight for a few months. Prior to that a DE for at last four years now. I never had more than a couple shaves in a row without a cut or three with the DE, usually under my chin near the neck where the hair pattern is tricky and I think my skin is a little bumpy. I bought the razor from Amazon and it claimed it was shave ready but after all of the stropping and honing I have been doing, ( I have a tiny paddle strop with compound on it, a large leather strop with a rough white back that I put diamond paste on. I strop and every now and then feel like I just dulled it but then after a bunch more stripping it gets back to or slightly better. I think there was the slightest bit of an edge to begin with. I have done the nail test and see that the blade currently will bite. The thumb pad also seems to indicate there is currently a level of sharpness. The hair on my arm comes off with the blade against the skin and with the grain, but atg and off the skin catches no hair, compared to the disposable bald which cuts hair in half and we'll off of the skin. The blade is also not sharp enough to cut my skin with slight pressure down directly on the blade. Probably not the recommended method for testing sharpness. I just ordered the zonal lapping film kit which comes with a 30 micron film all the way down to a 1 micron. If bevel is my problem, do you guys think the 30 will be sufficient to set a bevel or should I drop it off at the shaving specialty store about an hours drive away and wait the extra days to get it back? Any other tips?

taverre said:

So I have been shaving with a disposable blade straight for a few months. Prior to that a DE for at last four years now. I never had more than a couple shaves in a row without a cut or three with the DE, usually under my chin near the neck where the hair pattern is tricky and I think my skin is a little bumpy. I bought the razor from Amazon and it claimed it was shave ready but after all of the stropping and honing I have been doing, ( I have a tiny paddle strop with compound on it, a large leather strop with a rough white back that I put diamond paste on. I strop and every now and then feel like I just dulled it but then after a bunch more stripping it gets back to or slightly better. I think there was the slightest bit of an edge to begin with. I have done the nail test and see that the blade currently will bite. The thumb pad also seems to indicate there is currently a level of sharpness. The hair on my arm comes off with the blade against the skin and with the grain, but atg and off the skin catches no hair, compared to the disposable bald which cuts hair in half and we'll off of the skin. The blade is also not sharp enough to cut my skin with slight pressure down directly on the blade. Probably not the recommended method for testing sharpness. I just ordered the zonal lapping film kit which comes with a 30 micron film all the way down to a 1 micron. If bevel is my problem, do you guys think the 30 will be sufficient to set a bevel or should I drop it off at the shaving specialty store about an hours drive away and wait the extra days to get it back? Any other tips?

Click to expand...

You will easily be able to set a bevel with 30um film, also with 15um if your blade is in decent shape.

Try it and see. Go lightly.

Hi, newbie here.

So uhh, I got really interested on this whole film thing after I though that I'll never have the money to get a whole set of stones to complement my 1000/6000 king and naniwa SS 10k. I could do with those but I though that I could get the inbetween grit levels with the film. However while reading this topic I kinda got converted and ordered a beginner set of films (0.3, 1, 3, 5, 12), a 6mm thick glass plate and also four gold dollars for practice and modifying.

But I'd also like to get my main razor, the ralf aust, to top notch condition and sharpness. It's currently honed with the 10k and it's actually pretty nice but I feel it could be better. Hence the films.

Problem is though, the ralf aust has some immense sentimental value as it was given to me by my SO. I don't want fudge it up. I'm also a bit worried about the progression and bevel setting since the 12 film is really coarse and will take away a lot of metal. The razor came honed and I think it does have a decent bevel since I can get an affect with the 10k. maybe. I'm not 100% sure. Like, I honed it and it felt very sharp this morning but it may as well be that I fudged the edge and it did no cutting whatsoever. Not going ATG I have no idea how well it cut.

so the questions are
- Do I have to go to 12 or can I start with 5? I usually try to think these things rationally and obviously sense tells me that one bevel setting is not going to hurt the blade much, but it's only a 5/8 and the whole sentimental value thing is making me very irrational with this. I don't want to hurt my babay blade!
Does the bevel setting hurt the blade or should I start at 12 while I'm at it? to get it done properly that one time so I don't have to do it again?
- Should I start this project before I get my loupes? They are in the mail from china so it'll take a while but I think I can live with the 10k finish and I'll be getting a CroX balsa strop and maybe a 0.25 diamond balsa on the other side.
- What do all the different levels of HHT mean? HHT1 is apparently bad and HHT5 is the bees knees but what do they mean?

Ps. If I really get into this I think I'll retire my stones to kitchen knife work and use films exclusively. But it has to work first...
Pss. I ordered the gold dollars so I can really go to town with them and practice honing, modding, bevel setting, stropping etc. In a sense they are pawns sacrificing themselves for the queen which is the Ralf Aust (nowday a Queen called Ralf is actually pretty appropriate)

Thanks in advance for your responses

taverre said:

So I have been shaving with a disposable blade straight for a few months. Prior to that a DE for at last four years now. I never had more than a couple shaves in a row without a cut or three with the DE, usually under my chin near the neck where the hair pattern is tricky and I think my skin is a little bumpy. I bought the razor from Amazon and it claimed it was shave ready but after all of the stropping and honing I have been doing, ( I have a tiny paddle strop with compound on it, a large leather strop with a rough white back that I put diamond paste on. I strop and every now and then feel like I just dulled it but then after a bunch more stripping it gets back to or slightly better. I think there was the slightest bit of an edge to begin with. I have done the nail test and see that the blade currently will bite. The thumb pad also seems to indicate there is currently a level of sharpness. The hair on my arm comes off with the blade against the skin and with the grain, but atg and off the skin catches no hair, compared to the disposable bald which cuts hair in half and we'll off of the skin. The blade is also not sharp enough to cut my skin with slight pressure down directly on the blade. Probably not the recommended method for testing sharpness. I just ordered the zonal lapping film kit which comes with a 30 micron film all the way down to a 1 micron. If bevel is my problem, do you guys think the 30 will be sufficient to set a bevel or should I drop it off at the shaving specialty store about an hours drive away and wait the extra days to get it back? Any other tips?

Click to expand...

While there is one listing for a shave ready Gold Dollar, the vast majority are not shave ready. You'll likely have to set the bevel yourself or send it out for honing.

taverre said:

So I have been shaving with a disposable blade straight for a few months. Prior to that a DE for at last four years now. I never had more than a couple shaves in a row without a cut or three with the DE, usually under my chin near the neck where the hair pattern is tricky and I think my skin is a little bumpy.

Click to expand...

Okay, and thank you for a more clear description. I'm going to hit some things that have nothing to do with honing, film or otherwise, but this thread has derailed more times than people can count so maybe the mods will grant me a forbearance.

If you will excuse a rush to judgement it sounds as if you need to refine your "shaving with a straight" process, and I say this as a person who tried everything at once just like you are. Things that jump out at me are that you are using different razors for one; it really does take 100 straight shaves to learn, and then at least a week of contiguous shaving with any one razor to gain some familiarity. Second is the stropping. You say "I strop and every now and then" and talk about pastes and paddles ... this screams getting back to basics. More on that in a moment.

I bought the razor from Amazon and it claimed it was shave ready

Click to expand...

It may have been ... a newer straight shaver will destroy an edge in no time with bad form or bad stropping. It also may have not been shave ready. There's some contention about a description of what "sharp" is, but generally speaking most people agree hat a straight is unlikely to get as "clinically sharp" as a disposable blade. It is likely however to be a more comfortable shave if it's done well. Certainly it will be more forgiving (I say this as as Feather veteran).

I have a few suggestions for you:

First, send the razor you have to an experienced honer here. There are a few, they may pop up and offer some help or you can go looking for one. Doing this requires an understanding that a good hone is more important than a good blade. I began with a Gold Dollar and that + a honing from an experienced person is a better shave than a really expensive razor and a honing from a less experienced person on a better razor. Your experience screams "set the bevel!" and no, you really can't do that effectively with film (some are going to argue, I'm speaking as a person relatively new to honing as well). This does not mean the bevel was not set correctly previously. For all we know the original work was done with tape for instance which would make a different angle.

An experienced person will also be able to look at what you've done and give some feedback. For instance I received microscopic pictures back of the edge so it was not only "you screwed up" but "you screwed up and here's what that looks like." You will find this invaluable. Shipping back and forth and honing fees will sooner or later cost more than the razor (or will do so immediately if you bought a GD) but we are not here to save money. Also, trying to learn all of this at once is just ridiculous (again, speaking as a person who tried that) and JUST learning the razor at first is going to be much more satisfying.

Second, work on the basics. You strop on leather every time. A pasted strop is no replacement for a dull edge and in fact done wrong can ruin an edge. Done "correctly" you are still using an abrasive and I have not found that to be necessary when all other things are equal. This too (paste vs no paste) is a religious argument here but you are trying to learn more than one thing at a time and that's difficult no matter what. I use clean linen after the shave; I have seen microscopic before and after and the edge is disgusting looking after a shave no matter how well you clean it with soap and water. This helps preserve the edge, avoiding microscopic corrosion. Then before each shave the razor goes on clean, smooth leather. The only time you do not strop before a shave is if it was done after the last one. Every. Time.

Finally, start with the basics and then from there only change after a suitable amount of "settling in" time (about a week works for me) and then only change one thing at a time. I and others have learned this the hard way. I KNOW you want to try all these things but you will be happier if you understand the one change you made before introducing another. After you are experienced with a straight (vs a shavette type) and after you understand what your razor shaves like sharp, you can worry about learning to maintain the edge. I think learning all those things simultaneously is a recipe for disaster. At least it was in my case.

Oh ... film ... just to stay on topic in the thread.

El-Carpaso said:

Hi, newbie here.

So uhh, I got really interested on this whole film thing after I though that I'll never have the money to get a whole set of stones to complement my 1000/6000 king and naniwa SS 10k. I could do with those but I though that I could get the inbetween grit levels with the film. However while reading this topic I kinda got converted and ordered a beginner set of films (0.3, 1, 3, 5, 12), a 6mm thick glass plate and also four gold dollars for practice and modifying.

But I'd also like to get my main razor, the ralf aust, to top notch condition and sharpness. It's currently honed with the 10k and it's actually pretty nice but I feel it could be better. Hence the films.

Problem is though, the ralf aust has some immense sentimental value as it was given to me by my SO. I don't want fudge it up. I'm also a bit worried about the progression and bevel setting since the 12 film is really coarse and will take away a lot of metal. The razor came honed and I think it does have a decent bevel since I can get an affect with the 10k. maybe. I'm not 100% sure. Like, I honed it and it felt very sharp this morning but it may as well be that I fudged the edge and it did no cutting whatsoever. Not going ATG I have no idea how well it cut.

so the questions are
- Do I have to go to 12 or can I start with 5? I usually try to think these things rationally and obviously sense tells me that one bevel setting is not going to hurt the blade much, but it's only a 5/8 and the whole sentimental value thing is making me very irrational with this. I don't want to hurt my babay blade!
Does the bevel setting hurt the blade or should I start at 12 while I'm at it? to get it done properly that one time so I don't have to do it again?
- Should I start this project before I get my loupes? They are in the mail from china so it'll take a while but I think I can live with the 10k finish and I'll be getting a CroX balsa strop and maybe a 0.25 diamond balsa on the other side.
- What do all the different levels of HHT mean? HHT1 is apparently bad and HHT5 is the bees knees but what do they mean?

Ps. If I really get into this I think I'll retire my stones to kitchen knife work and use films exclusively. But it has to work first...
Pss. I ordered the gold dollars so I can really go to town with them and practice honing, modding, bevel setting, stropping etc. In a sense they are pawns sacrificing themselves for the queen which is the Ralf Aust (nowday a Queen called Ralf is actually pretty appropriate)

Thanks in advance for your responses

Click to expand...

If the Ralf is already in shave ready state, you can refresh the edge using no lower grit than the 3um easily (personally, I HATE the 5um film, the abrasive isn't bonded very well and it seems to create a synth slurry that dulls instead of sharpens). Do some time of the 3um, then the 1um, then shave.

Some guys like the 0.3um, but I find that is where the resulting edge gets to be over refined and become uncomfortable for many. Try stopping at 1um. It is very easy to think "more is better" in regards to over refinement of the edge. But that is not the case.

Lapping film can produce surface finishes far exceeding any natural hone, but remember the phrase: "put too fine a point on it", the result can be an edge that will not hold up to the hardship of whacking whiskers, and will degrade during the shave and result in harshness.





Honing the GDs from the factory is a whole different issue. The bevels will need to be set, and that is best done with a low grit hone, not film. Your 1000 should work pretty well. You will have to spend many MINUTES on the 1000, not a certain number of laps. Hone, hone, hone....stay on the 1000 until the bevel is set COMPLETELY. Rushing to get to the finishing stages will only result in a crummy result. Setting the bevel is THE KEY to all honing. I believe that most of the guys who think that Gold Dollars are somehow inferior razors are simply reacting to the fact that they themselves neglected to actually hone it up correctly, as the bevel takes ALOT more work than your average razor, and if it is not set correctly, the shave result will most certainly be lousey. Not the razor's fault, but the honer's.


Don't be afraid to wail away on the 1000 hone! It's just a $5 razor, don't sweat hone weear, etc, etc. Use some pressure when setting the bevel. Don't whisper it along the hone with ":just the weight of the blade", that is NOT what setting the bevel is about. Setting the bevel is about REMOVING BULK MATERIAL. It takes some OOMPH to do so.

Go get 'em!

El-Carpaso said:

so the questions are
- Do I have to go to 12 or can I start with 5? I usually try to think these things rationally and obviously sense tells me that one bevel setting is not going to hurt the blade much, but it's only a 5/8 and the whole sentimental value thing is making me very irrational with this. I don't want to hurt my babay blade!
Does the bevel setting hurt the blade or should I start at 12 while I'm at it? to get it done properly that one time so I don't have to do it again?
- Should I start this project before I get my loupes? They are in the mail from china so it'll take a while but I think I can live with the 10k finish and I'll be getting a CroX balsa strop and maybe a 0.25 diamond balsa on the other side.
- What do all the different levels of HHT mean? HHT1 is apparently bad and HHT5 is the bees knees but what do they mean?

Click to expand...

-If you can shave well with the 10k finish and know that the bevel is set, it's probably better that you start with the 3 or 1 micron for touch up. 5 micron is approximately 8000 grit, which is lower than your 10k finish. 30 bevel setting aren't going to hurt your second wife, much less one. Starting at 12 microns is essentially 1,200 grit. A better bet for setting the bevel (if you choose to) would be your King 1k. Just: A. Make sure it is lapped and beveled correctly. B. Make sure you really want to take a stab at honing. You might be surprised how long it will take you to nail the bevel setting.
-No, wait for the loupes. Honestly, you can try the Crox/diamond for a touch up, but I'd go back to the 10k (make sure it is lapped correctly) before resetting the bevel. Keep in mind, the crappy edge feel may very well be your stropping technique.
-Check out the honing shavewiki for HHT1-5. Basically describe how the hair cuts/sounds.

I prefer honing from bevel up. Thats me. I know you lose metal. OK, none of us will outlive one blade if the bevel gets done 2 x a year nor our sons and grandchildren. ANyway working backwards can be used. I never liked it though and am a firm believer in a honing = bevel set and up. Even a touchup. Unless you can do that with a pasted strop then you dont need the bevel set if it works well. Just my .02. Film and bevels is something I never did much of and what Seraphim said is true. You can refresh or reset a bevel with film. But a factory edge that needs work is easier with a stone or diamond plate.

I really appreciate your points with eliminating extra variables and starting with a good sharpen. Anyone on here who sharpens, please send me a PM and I would like to discuss further.

Thanks everyone for their posts so far.

taverre said:

I really appreciate your points with eliminating extra variables and starting with a good sharpen. Anyone on here who sharpens, please send me a PM and I would like to discuss further.

Thanks everyone for their posts so far.

Click to expand...

Where are you? Honing is very easily done by mail, but if there is someone close to you, and you can meet one on one and perhaps watch the whole process, you stand to gain a lot more.

yoiks . . . just found this thread. One quick question for the guy who has never sharpened anything beyond his pocket knives . . .

If I buy a truly shave ready straight from a reputable supplier (thus ensuring it truly IS shave ready), can I use the lapping films exclusively to maintain my edge (along with the strop, of course). As stated fairly early on, this seems like a quick way to maintain one's edge.

Yes.

3um followed by 1um will keep your razor going indefinitely

Seraphim,
Have you tried 2um? Thoughts, if so?

Seraphim said:

Yes.

3um followed by 1um will keep your razor going indefinitely

Click to expand...

Assuming that your "shave ready" razor was actually shave ready, which is a huge assumption.

Well, if what everyone says about the vendor I am leaning towards is accurate, I feel pretty safe.

isi07734 said:

Seraphim,
Have you tried 2um? Thoughts, if so?

Click to expand...

I have not tried it.

But like Goldilocks (Baldylocks is more like it), perhaps 2um will be "juuuust right".��