Stovetop Espresso Maker

**WesternModern** · 03-18-2012, 10:55 AM

A friend of mine just came back from Italy, raving about the coffee.
He wants to get a home espresso machine, but can't spend more than $150-$200.
I used to have a Melita espresso brewer, but it was junk, just cheap and plastic-y.
I'm trying to push him towards a stovetop. There's always the Moka, but he wants to be able to steam milk, too.
Looks are important, too. The La Sorrentina Atomic would be perfect, but it's too pricy at $459.
Does anybody own this?
The Taylor and Ng CX-25. Its stainless-steel, has a steaming wand, and looks kinda retro. At about $125, the price is perfect.
I'm even considering buying this for him as a gift, so any thoughts or advice will be appreciated.
Thanks!

**pdillon** · 03-19-2012, 07:30 AM

First off, let me say that is very generous of you!

I have just recently entered this world myself so I am definitely no expert. That was proved this weekend when I received my first (real) espresso machine, and I proved to be rather incompetent at pulling a consistently good shot. Steady progress though...

To be perfectly honest, that may be a difficult budget. The thing you really have to consider is getting a new grinder, which is just as important if not more so than the machine.

Do a lot of research here:
www.coffeegeek.com

and also perhaps here:

www.home-barista.com

**SiBurning** · 03-19-2012, 07:54 AM

Coffee or espresso? The stovetop contraptions make coffee. You can get steamers and frothers for milk. Seems like the best way to go on that budget. Grinder, plain stovetop moka, and frother is possible under $200us.

**professorchaos** · 03-20-2012, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by SiBurning

Coffee or espresso? The stovetop contraptions make coffee. You can get steamers and frothers for milk. Seems like the best way to go on that budget. Grinder, plain stovetop moka, and frother is possible under $200us.

This. A Bialetti Moka will run you under $50 and they are pretty much idiot proof. It isn't espresso but if it is close enough for Italians to use at home, it is close enough for me. And it makes a damn good cup. For grinding Hario Skerton, well under $50 (rather slow but hits well above its weight class, especially for the finer grinds).

I don't know a thing about steamers and frothers.

**melveyr** · 03-21-2012, 07:11 AM

While not exactly stove-top, I am absolutely thrilled with my faux latte set up. Whenever I go to coffee shops I am disappointed now. What a turn around!

http://www.amazon.com/Nespresso-3190...2338903&sr=8-2
http://www.amazon.com/Aerobie-AeroPr...2338969&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Kyocera-CM-50-...2338984&sr=1-4

With some decent beans this trifecta will propel you to coffee greatness. The foamer was a gift, so you might be able to find a cheaper version that offers similar use-value. Hope this helps

**takeshi** · 03-21-2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by WesternModern

He wants to get a home espresso machine, but can't spend more than $150-$200.

That is a really tight budget. What about the grinder?

**WesternModern** · 03-21-2012, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by takeshi

That is a really tight budget. What about the grinder?

He has about $300-$400 worth of Starbucks gift cards, so he's going to buy the coffee there and have them grind it.

**Slash McCoy** · 03-21-2012, 09:41 AM

I am thinking about getting a bellman myself. I live on my sailboat and have an electric machine for everyday use but I need a non ele tric for when I actually go somewhere and have to leave the convenience of shore power behind. I have a Moka but it doesn't steam milk. Makes a fair approximation of espresso but no real crema. Not enough pressure for that. I have a mr coffee espresso machine that I can run from my 1000 watt inverter but the. I have to use my engine to charge my batteries so I really want a stovetop option. Maybe the Atomic? But costs 3x what the Bellman costs for proba ly the same results.

**Drybonz** · 03-21-2012, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by WesternModern

He has about $300-$400 worth of Starbucks gift cards, so he's going to buy the coffee there and have them grind it.

He might be better off to use part of those Starbucks cards to buy a grinder off their website. Even if it is a cheap one, grinding at home is going to give him much fresher coffee.

**pdillon** · 03-21-2012, 11:21 AM

He has about $300-$400 worth of Starbucks gift cards, so he's going to buy the coffee there and have them grind it.

No, no, no. By the time he gets home, the ground coffee will have lost its freshness. You want to keep recently roasted whole-bean coffee and grind it as you need it for the coffee you're about to make. There's a rule called something like the rule of 15s. (I've been learning so much about this lately, it's hard for me to keep it straight). Green coffee (unroasted coffee beans) keeps for 15 months, roast coffee keeps for 15 days, ground coffee needs to be used within 15 minutes, and a beverage remains good for about 15 minutes. Those are just loose guidelines.

The grinder is more important than the machine itself, and you have to take that into account when determining a budget. It's going to be difficult on that budget to get a decent set up.

You might need to take a longer term approach. Save up some cash. Do some research. And look for used gear. Get some fun, cheaper gear in the meantime.

I understand you're talking about your friend and not yourself. So maybe you want to get him something like the aeropress. I've never used it, but I understand it can make high quality espresso (but not froth milk). You could also look into pour-over, chemex, french press, or a vacuum pot.

**Icebear** · 03-21-2012, 12:11 PM

Hi there,

the next best thing to a real home espresso machine (and real is a E61 group head and dual heating circuit -> $2k and up) is something basic like this :
http://www.espressozone.com/bialetti...kers-7857.aspx
Avoid anything fully automatic or anything that chains you (or your friend) to buy a certain type of custom coffee pod system. Save on the brewing equipment and get a proper grinder to use whole bean coffee. This make a serious difference.

**Jasonian** · 03-21-2012, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Slash McCoy

I am thinking about getting a bellman myself. I live on my sailboat and have an electric machine for everyday use but I need a non ele tric for when I actually go somewhere and have to leave the convenience of shore power behind. I have a Moka but it doesn't steam milk. Makes a fair approximation of espresso but no real crema. Not enough pressure for that. I have a mr coffee espresso machine that I can run from my 1000 watt inverter but the. I have to use my engine to charge my batteries so I really want a stovetop option. Maybe the Atomic? But costs 3x what the Bellman costs for proba ly the same results.

What you need is a Mypressi Twist and a lame battery-powered aerator. REAL espresso, and foam, if that's your dig. I'd probably skip the milk entirely if it were my boat, but if I had to have foam'd calf's food on my coffee, that's what I'd do.

**Slash McCoy** · 03-21-2012, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jasonian

What you need is a Mypressi Twist and a lame battery-powered aerator. REAL espresso, and foam, if that's your dig. I'd probably skip the milk entirely if it were my boat, but if I had to have foam'd calf's food on my coffee, that's what I'd do.

I was looking at the Mypressi and thinking about that. I like a nice quadruple shot, though, and I think that thing is only going to do about a double. And the whippy frothers just don't do it for me. Maybe if I heat the milk first, but wow... that is going into an awful lot of steps. My Mr Coffee is work enough... grinding and tamping are REALLY critical with this machine, as is water level and even ambient temperature. It is a challenge to get a decent quad shot and froth the milk nicely, but it CAN be done, and with only one machine. I don't want to have to use a whole countertop full of gadgets just to make my daily cappa, if I can help it.

I think a good stovetopper ought to have two boilers. One to generate the steam, and one to just heat water to proper extraction temp. Fiddling with the flame exposure to the two boilers (a movable damper plate would be one approach) would be the trick. Then the dry steam would force the heated water rather than boiling water through the puck. It would be nice to have a reliable pressure gauge and a unit strong enough to take 8 or 10 bars, too. I think most steam machines probably operate at around half of that? Just guessing. I am remembering that my pressure cooker runs at ONE bar. Maybe 150psi is an unrealistic pressure for a stovetop boiler, I don't know.

**chongo gordo** · 03-22-2012, 12:10 AM

All the stove top espresso makers I've tried burned the heck out of coffee. A good French press with an espresso roast does a pretty good job. For a grinder I would suggest the Zassenhaus hand grinder. Really a superior kitchen product.

**grasshopper** · 03-22-2012, 04:55 AM

I've owned a couple of Bellmans. The upside: It will produce lots of coffee in one go. The downside: requires lots of gaskets. Those gaskets are sometimes difficult to source, a pain to change out, and ALWAYS expensive. When the gaskets experience wear (doesn't take long), the machine becomes inefficient and slow. It overheats but will not produce pressure. No coffee gizmo is perfect. If your friend has a set of small wrenches and high frustration threshold, the Bellman is the best choice. Simpler stove-top units have just one or two gaskets, but their beverage is not as similar to espresso. This, of course, is opnion, and there's no accounting for taste, especially my own. Hope this helps. ~grasshopper

**Jasonian** · 03-22-2012, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Slash McCoy

I was looking at the Mypressi and thinking about that. I like a nice quadruple shot, though, and I think that thing is only going to do about a double. And the whippy frothers just don't do it for me. Maybe if I heat the milk first, but wow... that is going into an awful lot of steps. My Mr Coffee is work enough... grinding and tamping are REALLY critical with this machine, as is water level and even ambient temperature. It is a challenge to get a decent quad shot and froth the milk nicely, but it CAN be done, and with only one machine. I don't want to have to use a whole countertop full of gadgets just to make my daily cappa, if I can help it.

I think a good stovetopper ought to have two boilers. One to generate the steam, and one to just heat water to proper extraction temp. Fiddling with the flame exposure to the two boilers (a movable damper plate would be one approach) would be the trick. Then the dry steam would force the heated water rather than boiling water through the puck. It would be nice to have a reliable pressure gauge and a unit strong enough to take 8 or 10 bars, too. I think most steam machines probably operate at around half of that? Just guessing. I am remembering that my pressure cooker runs at ONE bar. Maybe 150psi is an unrealistic pressure for a stovetop boiler, I don't know.

1. Steam powered "espresso" isn't. It just can't get up to enough pressure. If you want espresso, steam power is out.
2. the Mypressi Twist uses CO2 cartridges for pressure. It wouldn't take long to brew two doubles. (just two rounds of brewing, each at 1min. or less)
3. So, warm the milk first. Alternatively, you could use a French press to aerate the milk if you don't mind intense washing between milk and coffee uses.

4. There is no such thing as stove-top "espresso". There is stove-top pressurized brewing, but it doesn't come close to approaching 130psi. At this point, if I wanted a lot of volume in little time, concentrated, and brewed under pressure, I would just stick with an Aeropress. :)

**Slash McCoy** · 03-22-2012, 06:47 AM

Oh, well I am not gonna mess with any CO2 cartridges. I thought the Mypressi was the one you pump up. Maybe I will go with the Aeropress and for steaming milk, the Bellman.

**Slash McCoy** · 03-22-2012, 06:55 AM

Or I might just try the Bellman first, and get an aeropress if it doesn't give me what I want. I am pretty sure it will froth milk to my satisfaction. Now I don't care about the semantics. If it looks, feels, and tastes like espresso, if it is coffee brewed by forcing hot water through it under pressure, I call it espresso, whether I made it with a $1400 machine or a $40 one. So that's what I mean when I say "espresso" or "cappuccino".

**Go Forth** · 03-22-2012, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by WesternModern

He has about $300-$400 worth of Starbucks gift cards, so he's going to buy the coffee there and have them grind it.

Then he won't have great results, no matter what hardware he gets. Starbucks' beans are not the best, and their roast is generally quite dark. Grinding at home, just prior to brewing, is the most effective thing one can do to produce a good quality product. The best beans, ground in the store days before consumption, will not yield good results. This is particularly true for fine espresso grinds, which have a very high surface to mass ratio, causing excessive oxidation and loss of volatiles. He should use his gift cards to buy a Starbucks branded espresso machine, if they are still available, some of which have been of good quality (such as rebranded Saecos).

**Slash McCoy** · 03-22-2012, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Go Forth

Then he won't have great results, no matter what hardware he gets. Starbucks' beans are not the best, and their roast is generally quite dark. Grinding at home, just prior to brewing, is the most effective thing one can do to produce a good quality product. The best beans, ground in the store days before consumption, will not yield good results. This is particularly true for fine espresso grinds, which have a very high surface to mass ratio, causing excessive oxidation and loss of volatiles. He should use his gift cards to buy a Starbucks branded espresso machine, if they are still available, some of which have been of good quality (such as rebranded Saecos).

I will +1 about the grinding. There is NO COMPARISON between beans ground a few minutes ago and beans ground a few days ago, no matter how well you seal and store them. Even freezing the ground coffee is not much of a solution. A cheap(ish) grinder is better than no grinder, but the whirring blade type should be avoided. I get very good results with my brass grinders I get from Turkey. They are slow, and the coarsest grind is still a bit fine for drip and way too fine for French Press, but it works for espresso/cappuccino. And they are dead dirt cheap. I imagine quality control could throw you a lemon sometimes but I have never had one that I noticed didn't give a good grind. They are slow, though. Kyocera makes a couple of cheap ones that will work. These are hand grinders. Hario gets some bad reviews along with the good ones but I used one with good results. Anyway, you want a burr type grinder, not the whirring blade type. The blade type simply cannot give you a consistent particle size. For every brewing method there is an ideal grind. I don't think there is a method of making coffee where the ideal grind is a mixture of fine powder and large chunks. That's what the blade grinders give you.