Semogue Boar...I don't get it??

[todot62]

Okay, When I first started using a brush about 15 years ago, I started with just a cheap boar I found at our local grocery store. It lost a few hairs every time I used it, but worked "fine" for one pass shaves for about 8-10 years. About 3-4 years ago, I came across this site and bought an inexpensive pure badger which was a significant step up from my old grocery store boar. Of course if you are hanging around this site, you're not going to just have one of anything, so I was lucky enough to pickup a vintage re-knotted Every Ready with a TGN 24mm Finest, and this has been my brush ever since. It lathers ANYTHING well, whether in a bowl or on my face, and it does it without even thinking about it. I think a monkey could get a great lather with this thing.

Just recently I've been reading the religious fervor around Semogue brushes, especially the 620, and thought I would give it a try. I also lucked into a 610 as well. So here I am with a nicely broken in 620 (60+ shaves) and 610 (about the same) and I've been trying to see what all the hype is about, but unfortunately, I just don't get it. Compared to my TGN Finest, In order to get a decent lather, I have to soak the Semogues MUCH longer, and use WAY more soap or cream. God forbid if I want to do a 2-3 pass shave with either Semogue, because that's not going to happen unless we start the lather process all over again. On the other hand with my TGN with half the soap in half the time, I can get a 5-6 pass shave (If I wanted) without even breathing hard.

What am I not getting here? I think I understand the different technique of a boar (remember I used one for many years), but with all the hype, maybe I expected these Semogues to be something different than they can be. Is the hype centered around the fact that they are a great brush in their price range, or are they great at any price? They are great feeling and great looking brushes, and I would LOVE to find a place in my heart for them and join the club, but they cannot even come close to doing what my TGN can do. Can anyone help me understand this Semogue religion, and what I gain if I stick with my Semogues?

Thanks,
Tod

[IA_Cabby]

Hey Tod,
I was having a tough time with my 1305 as well. In time, it did get a little bit better. But, read this thread >> http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...ian-soft-soaps

and tell me if you're following that to the letter. I was shaking out too much water and after reading that thread, it really helped.

[Antique Hoosier]

Having owned about 50 Simpson, Plisson, Kent, Vulfix badgers,....I'm pretty much using my Semogue 1305 daily. I often fantasize about buying another high end badger brush but then the next morning I whip up a great lather with the Semogue and call it a day. One of the very best values out there in my opinion. I use primarily Santa Maria Novella, Acqua di Parma, and Blenheim Bouquet creams with it. Those high end creams have no idea I'm using a low end boar with them.

[IA_Cabby]

I use primarily Santa Maria Novella, Acqua di Parma

not to derail thread here but, can you tell a difference in the ADP vs razorock?

[turtle]

There are so many different types of brushes out there because there are so many people with different tastes in what they want. There is no universal this one is the best. Each has its own quirks, characteristics, strong, and weak points.

If you find that one does not work for you put it down and move to something else. Come back to it in 4-6 months and see if you still feel the same. I am amazed when I put a brush away because I am not happy/satisfied with the performance only to pick it up at a later date and be blown away...

[todot62]

Thanks for the info Cabby. I do understand HOW to lather a boar, but I guess my question is WHY. I think everyone will admit (or maybe they won't, idk, that's just what my experience is) that a good badger will always lather easier and faster than a boar, but I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is why do so many people WANT to work at it? What do you gain for all the extra time and effort? Is it just a thing like shaving with a straight will always be more trouble than a DE, yet some people do it anyway? But at least with the straight, some would argue that you get an even smoother shave, so therefore it's worth the extra time. Plus there is something to be said about the experience of a straight razor shave as well. I'm just trying to figure out why using the Semogue 610 or 620 would be worth my time.

Tod

[IA_Cabby]

Thanks for the info Cabby. I do understand HOW to lather a boar, but I guess my question is WHY. I think everyone will admit (or maybe they won't, idk, that's just what my experience is) that a good badger will always lather easier and faster than a boar, but I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is why do so many people WANT to work at it? What do you gain for all the extra time and effort? Is it just a thing like shaving with a straight will always be more trouble than a DE, yet some people do it anyway? But at least with the straight, some would argue that you get an even smoother shave, so therefore it's worth the extra time. Plus there is something to be said about the experience of a straight razor shave as well. I'm just trying to figure out why using the Semogue 610 or 620 would be worth my time.

Tod

ok, that's a fair question. Being a newbie to DE shaving I'm not best qualified to answer the question posed, although if I were to guess it would be a boar vs. badger water retention issue.

I also agree with the sentiment of why people would choose a straight over a DE. It seems like too much effort involved (for what I would conceive anyways) a minimally closer shave.

Shave with an R41 and a feather and tell me how a straight could get any closer...?

[mdevine]

Thanks for the info Cabby. I do understand HOW to lather a boar, but I guess my question is WHY. I think everyone will admit (or maybe they won't, idk, that's just what my experience is) that a good badger will always lather easier and faster than a boar, but I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is why do so many people WANT to work at it? What do you gain for all the extra time and effort? Is it just a thing like shaving with a straight will always be more trouble than a DE, yet some people do it anyway? But at least with the straight, some would argue that you get an even smoother shave, so therefore it's worth the extra time. Plus there is something to be said about the experience of a straight razor shave as well. I'm just trying to figure out why using the Semogue 610 or 620 would be worth my time.

Tod

I haven't found this to be the case. I have three badgers, two Simpsons and a Vulfix, and three Semogue boars, a 610, SOC and 2011 LE FB1. I exclusively face lather soaps and find it easier to lather the boars than the badgers. I find myself reaching for the boars twice as often. As with most wet shaving products, YMMV.

[celestino]

Tod, i have never used the 620, but have the 830 which i think is Semogue's best boar brush, overall. The 1305 is probably their second best boar brush, in my opinion. i think people who like boar brushes like the backbone and how it exfoliates and massages the face when face lathering and the enjoyment of the whole process of pampering once self. To each their own. Once the brushes were broken in, i have never had an issue producing lather with either of these or with any of the other Semogue boars that i have. i face lather, now for four months, and i can produce very thick, smooth, slick lather for three or more passes with some good tallow based soap. Unfortunate that you can not seem to get accustomed to them. For the price, they do just as great a job as the more expensive brushes. i guess everything is subjective. i would highly recommend the 830, but the 1305 is also very good. i wish i could make a video to send to you, but i do not have a video camera. Here is a video that may help?! http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...thering+videos

Here are some pictures i took this morning of my Semogue 1800 just rinsing under tap with warm water for 10-15 seconds, then shaking 1/2 or more of the water out of the brush (i use a drier brush then add water a bit at a time), then swirling MdC for 15 seconds, palm lathering for 20 seconds while adding a bit of water twice without using moderate pressure. This is how most of my boars lather using MdC, Mystic Water soap, and MJ Soaps. i wish i could make a video to demonstrate. i do not use Marco's method as i seem to get great results the way i lather and do not use 1/4 of the soap! Nothing wrong with his method. i just prefer mine. The pictures are in progression starting with the brush rinsed of most of the water. Good luck, sir.

[todot62]

Tod,
i have never used the 620, but have the 830 which i think is Semogue's best boar brush, overall. The 1305 is probably their second best boar brush, in my opinion. i think people who like boar brushes like the backbone and how it exfoliates and massages the face when face lathering and the enjoyment of the whole process of pampering once self. To each their own.
Once the brushes were broken in, i have never had an issue producing lather with either of these or with any of the other Semogue boars that i have. i face lather, now for four months, and i can produce very thick, smooth, slick lather for three or more passes with some good tallow based soap. Unfortunate that you can not seem to get accustomed to them. For the price, they do just as great a job as the more expensive brushes. i guess everything is subjective. i would highly recommend the 830, but the 1305 is also very good. i wish i could make a video to send to you, but i do not have a video camera. Here is a video that may help?!
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...thering+videos
Good luck, sir.

I looked at that video and that's exactly what I'm talking about. By the time he gets through trying to get that boar lathered up using the Marco method, I would have been on my second pass with my badger with just a few strokes on the puck. Dip the badger in the water for a few seconds, shake it out a bit, do a few swirls on a moist puck, and start lathering your face.

[rajagra]

Once the brushes were broken in, i have never had an issue producing lather with either of these or with any of the other Semogue boars that i have. i face lather, now for four months, and i can produce very thick, smooth, slick lather for three or more passes with some good tallow based soap.
...
Here is a video that may help
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...thering+videos

In those videos brucered gets good results, but along the way, shows the problem I have with boars. Here is his brush after loading MWF, before lathering in the scuttle:



Note the complete lack of visible product in the top half of the brush. I know he hasn't attempted to fill the brush at this stage, but my problem is that when I face lather with a boar, the lather never works its way into the base of the knot. I'm not even sure brucered manages to, though clearly the mass of lather he makes in the scuttle does stick to the side of the brush, at least.
My usual frustration with boars (face lathering) is that half a brushful of lather won't last the 3 passes I make.
Badgers, in comparison, not only fill through with lather, they also fluff out sideways, increasing their effective volume. They hold a ton of lather.
I will try using a scuttle with my boar brush. It may at least give me some insight.

[todot62]

In those videos brucered gets good results, but along the way, shows the problem I have with boars. Here is his brush after loading MWF, before lathering in the scuttle:



Note the complete lack of visible product in the top half of the brush. I know he hasn't attempted to fill the brush at this stage, but my problem is that when I face lather with a boar, the lather never works its way into the base of the knot. I'm not even sure brucered manages to, though clearly the mass of lather he makes in the scuttle does stick to the side of the brush, at least.
My usual frustration with boars (face lathering) is that half a brushful of lather won't last the 3 passes I make.
Badgers, in comparison, not only fill through with lather, they also fluff out sideways, increasing their effective volume. They hold a ton of lather.
I will try using a scuttle with my boar brush. It may at least give me some insight.

I'm glad you included that pic, because you are correct...when I look at most boar videos, they use 50 times more product, end up with a watery sludge and are proud of the results. I'm sorry, but I couldn't shave with that stuff. Nor would I want to because my badger would have given me a very think robust amount of cream. Are the boar users holding up this video as "the explosion of cream" that's been referred to?

[jwcarlson]

I'm glad you included that pic, because you are correct...when I look at most boar videos, they use 50 times more product, end up with a watery sludge and are proud of the results. I'm sorry, but I couldn't shave with that stuff. Nor would I want to because my badger would have given me a very think robust amount of cream. Are the boar users holding up this video as "the explosion of cream" that's been referred to?

It's not a Semogue but may be applicable:


For what it's worth that's exactly how I shave with my Semogue... run some water over the brush, splash some on my face, and go... none of the hot towel, hot shower, soak my brush for 15 minutes and load my brush for 10 seconds each upside down, sideways, and both CCW and CW directions... It's shaving, folks...

I went from Tweezerman to TGN restores to a Semogue 1438.
And then I stopped.

That paint brush is the only other bush I've used in about a year.

Beware of the man with just one gun (brush). He probably knows how to use it. :)

:-D

[SOS]

For what it's worth that's exactly how I shave with my Semogue... run some water over the brush, splash some on my face, and go... none of the hot towel, hot shower, soak my brush for 15 minutes and load my brush for 10 seconds each upside down, sideways, and both CCW and CW directions... It's shaving, folks...

I went from Tweezerman to TGN restores to a Semogue 1438.
And then I stopped.

That paint brush is the only other bush I've used in about a year.



:-D

Thank you!

[brucered]

In those videos brucered gets good results, but along the way, shows the problem I have with boars. Here is his brush after loading MWF, before lathering in the scuttle:

Note the complete lack of visible product in the top half of the brush. I know he hasn't attempted to fill the brush at this stage, but my problem is that when I face lather with a boar, the lather never works its way into the base of the knot. I'm not even sure brucered manages to, though clearly the mass of lather he makes in the scuttle does stick to the side of the brush, at least.
My usual frustration with boars (face lathering) is that half a brushful of lather won't last the 3 passes I make.
Badgers, in comparison, not only fill through with lather, they also fluff out sideways, increasing their effective volume. They hold a ton of lather.
I will try using a scuttle with my boar brush. It may at least give me some insight.

ha...please don't take my amateurish videos as a tutorial for lathering ....

when i made these videos, i was strictly "bowl lathering". that said, i've been face lathering lately using the same method with QCS and the last couple of days with MdC and have yet to have a problem doing a 3 pass shave and have not had to reapply any product for lack of lather.

i even have left over for touch ups and for washing my face etc.

if you find the lather not making it all the way to the bottom of the brush, you could also do what many do, lather it upside down. so hold the brush upright, and lather like you are paining the ceiling, then the lather will make it's way down the brush.

i rotate my brushes, so will use Boar, Badger, Boar Badger. i have 2 semogues, and 2 badgers (thater and TGN) and they all perform great, just have different feels to them etc.

whatever works.

[awa54]

.... Note the complete lack of visible product in the top half of the brush. I know he hasn't attempted to fill the brush at this stage, but my problem is that when I face lather with a boar, the lather never works its way into the base of the knot. ....
My usual frustration with boars (face lathering) is that half a brushful of lather won't last the 3 passes I make. ....

Hmm, this is the exact reason I like the boar experience more than the badger so far.... the boar knot doesn't spread as much so when you compress or flex it the tightness of the bristles springing back into shape ejects your chosen product outward to the tips of the bristles, rather than hiding it in the base of the knot or letting it froth out all over the sides of the brush. The essential difference I feel between boar and badger is that badger makes lather first, then you spread it on your face afterward, where boar picks up product, then makes the actual lather on your face as you move the brush around.

All differences aside (and almost every parameter is different between the two fibers) all six of the brushes I own (three boars, one mix, one pure badger and one best badger) can make decent lather either on my face or in the bowl...and without excessive use of product I can get three plus passes out of any of them, although how the soap is delivered is very different.

[todot62]

The essential difference I feel between boar and badger is that badger makes lather first, then you spread it on your face afterward, where boar picks up product, then makes the actual lather on your face as you move the brush around.

Interesting, and makes sense. I think that's one of the reasons I'll have trouble getting 2-3 passes with the boar. With my badger, I just set the brush down, re-wet my face and lather my face again with the brush. The boar is always WAY too dry to do that. Maybe it has enough product, but not enough water. Tomorrow I'll try adding some water to the brush for a second pass.

[Icebear]

In those videos brucered gets good results, but along the way, shows the problem I have with boars. Here is his brush after loading MWF, before lathering in the scuttle:



Note the complete lack of visible product in the top half of the brush. I know he hasn't attempted to fill the brush at this stage, but my problem is that when I face lather with a boar, the lather never works its way into the base of the knot.......

Hello Ray,
what would be the point or purpose to get any soap that deep into the base of the knot ? From there it will never get anywhere near your skin or am I missing something?

You only need the upper part of the brush. Like painting - all the paint getting too deep into the brush is just a pain afterwards to clean with whatever brushcleaner you need to use depending on the type of solvent the paint is based on. If you press the brush so hard on the soap and during lathering, then you are wasting soap as you push it somewhere where it is of no use anymore and potentially you will damage you brush in the long run as it is nearly impossible to get the base of the knot perfectly clean. It will start shedding hairs due to the soap scum built-up deep in the knot. Just my 0.02$ but as I said initially, maybe I'm missing something.

[rajagra]

Hello Ray,
what would be the point or purpose to get any soap that deep into the base of the knot ? From there it will never get anywhere near your skin or am I missing something?

All I actually want is to get 3 passes out of the brush without the lather thinning excessively between passes.
I nearly always get great lather for the 1st pass with a boar. The second pass is adequate. By the 3rd I'm usually making do with substandard lather.
While I'm willing to reload, it's not something I need to do with badgers.
I merely observe that (A) There isn't enough lather. (B) The base of the knot tends to hog water and repel lather.
It seems reasonable to wish that lather would fill the brush, and conclude that I'm doing something wrong. I just don't know what. I really have experimented and given the brush enough use to break it in (continuous 3 months' use at one point.)

[Island Dreamer]

I've been totally unimpressed with the 1305 I bought after all the love posts I read here. Pretty handle and that's about it. I think I just prefer a nice badger brush more. I was going to sell it on BST but honestly it's too much trouble for $15-20 so I guess it'll be a cabinet queen.