First honing attempt didn't go well, need some help...

[dk_ace]

I have a King 1000/6000 combination stone, a nagurra stone, and a whipped dog poor man's strop kit (simple hanging strop and a balsa strop charged with red and green powders). I flattened the King stone using 90X silicon carbide grit on plate glass. The razor in question is an old H Boker extra hollow ground with very minor hone wear and no significant problems to deal with (etch says "Finest India Steel").

My first attempt at honing was a failure. In hindsight, I probably didn't have things exactly right on the 1K side of the stone before I moved on. I don't think the edge was sharp enough, and I don't think the sharpness and/or bevel was consistent all along the blade. I didn't use the balsa strop at all during the honing process, and I'm not sure if I should on the next attempt. The razor will cut arm hair, sort of. It will if held at just the right angle, and not all points of the blade will do it. The HHT is completely out of the question; the hanging hair laughs at the razor. I was following a simple honing method I found on the net, and I think it may have over-simplified the process...

So, with the tools I have, what should I do to get a good edge? I'm a little concerned about spine wear as I'm just learning and don't want to wear down a perfectly good razor, so I was thinking that on the next attempt I'll use some electrical tape to protect it.

A possible side question: can the unicot method be used with the 6K side of the stone using the nagurra to raise a slurry? I know that method is usually done with a coticle, but in theory I can't think of a good reason why any finishing stone that you can raise a slurry with won't work.

Thanks,
D

[tlittle]

I may be wrong (don't know much about king stones and their respective grit ratings), but the general consensus is that you want to get up to around 8k for a good shave ready razor (of course, many of us go past that point ).

Was this razor shaving well at some point previously, or is this a new purchase? If it once shaved well and you're just trying to rehone, I very much doubt that you need to reset the bevel (unless you dulled the edge first as part of the honing process). However, you should be able to cut arm hair all along the blade before you move off of the 1k side. Once that's done though, you're going to have a lot of work ahead of you removing the 1k scratches with the 6k, as that's quite a jump. The slurry would probably help with bridging the gap. Raise some, and dilute it gradually to plain water as you hone.

After that, you'll probably need to get a little higher in grit level (who knows, maybe not, it's worth trying it out to see if it shaves you well but I'd imagine that you'll want more than a 6k finish). You could try doing some paste but I don't know if that would be able to bridge the gap from 6k. Once again though, there's only one way to know; just test that sucker out!

As for unicot, that won't get you sharper than the above method, but if you have a good bevel set and you really want to just experience the 6k finish already, put a layer of tape on and use just water on the 6k side and do simple light x-strokes. That will show you how sharp the 6k can get.

[Kentos]

How did the razor shave? Normally 8k is a minimum grit most feel is comfortable for shaving. Nagura are often used on higher grit stones, so on a 6k it likely won't help much.

[trick420]

You should consider investing in a norton 4k/8k combo or a coticule. 6K isn't high enough to get a good edge. It can be done, but it's dubious at best for a newbie. For years I honed 1K - 8K, and I figured out a system that worked well for me, but for a long time I suffered with sucky edges until I figured it out.

If you insist on sticking with the 1K 6K setup, I would start heavy slurry on 1K, then water only, then heavy slurry on the 6K and dilute it down a few times (sorta like a coticule, but maybe only twice, and then polish the tar out of it with water only - AND doing so under a running stream. Then you MIGHT get a shave worthy edge...

A coticule on the other hand, once you learn how to use it, will replace that 6K immediately AND give you a finished edge.

If you got a Norton 4K/8K, you would also be set for a long time. Although I think a coti will get you an even better finish.

Jeff

[Proinsias]

Sham's honing videos might be worth watching:


With king stone and the balsa strop you should be able to get decent edge. The 1k side of the stone dishes quickly, if you've been using pressure and slurry it may benefit from a quick lapping and finishing off on the 1k with no pressure and a clean stone before jumping to the 6k.

[rossvtaylor]

dk_ace I was thinking like you, perhaps the bevel wasn't set correctly - in which case, all the subsequent polishing of that edge was for naught. But, Proinsias mentioned pressure and I was thinking that too much of that might also be an issue. It's easy to do and I was guilty of it.

[Alum of Potash]

My first full honing attempt (last summer) went pretty well . The sequence was as follows: Puma 1k/6k artificial water-stone combo (actually a rebranded Japanese stone of indeterminate origin--perhaps intended for the kitchen). Bevel was set on 1k, followed by polishing on 6k--no slurry in either case, just water. This was followed by stropping on a paddle with Thiers-Issard AlOx-diamond crayon on one side and CrOx on the other. I have read that the T-I crayon approximates 10k, so maybe that made the bridge to CrOx in this case.

All the same, I had been shaving on professionally-honed coticule-to-CrOx edges up to this point. My own honed edge seemed more like the sensation I had felt when shaving with DE disposables. So later, I ran it past a coticule and this tended to smooth the effect a bit.

That being said, my experience is limited compared to some of the above posters, so you should take it with the requisite grain of salt. I just mention it as I was in a similar situation as you and found that it was possible. Even now, I still wish that stropping could carry the day from that 6k, or similarly-ranked stones. From the newbie standpoint, it would seem to make a lot of sense. Rather than multiple progressions, you have a two-stage progression, leaving the polishing to the strops.

At a more advanced level, as suggested above, using a lighter and lighter touch might also lead to a greater polishing effect with the lower stones, making a direct bridge to CrOx. Don't know for sure, but that is sort of what I am after right now.

[Gamma]

For me - 6k is half way home. I have no idea if red/green pastes could carry the edge the rest of the way, I suppose it might be possible though - but I'd also guess that if it is possible, then the edge would have to be truly maxed out on the 6k.
When I have/had edge issues, I return to the bevel. I make sure that The edge is undercutting water on the 1k before I even start to think about moving on. Checking to see if the edge will cut arm hair follows a confirmed undercutting of water - this is when there is very little water on the top of the stone. Once that's done, the rest falls into place.

[shakin_jake]

With king stone and the balsa strop you should be able to get decent edge.

For me - 6k is half way home. I have no idea if red/green pastes could carry the edge the rest of the way, I suppose it might be possible though

~~~ya mon...with the 1 k stone and iron oxide, or red paste, you can get a shaveable edge...I didn't beleive it until I did it myself...I had heard that it can be done but, I'm from Missouri and you gotta show me so, I bought a loom strop and plastered DOVO red paste on one side, but first, I corrected the bevel with a 1K stone and made sure the edge could shave arm hair not only well, but easily...here's the dovo red paste

I did approx. 80 laps (x strokes) on this loom strop pasted with red dovo paste. Remember, I set (corrected) the bevel before with a 1 K Norton

Then I wiped the red paste off the blade and did 15 laps on green chromium oxide

Next I wiped off the remnants of green Cr0x and took the razor to a hanging leather strop & did 70 laps. Done. Very shave ready.


What's important is to make sure you have finished on the 1 K before moving on, and FWIW, I've done this same experiment using my LPB coticule bout w/wet milky slurry, in place of the 1 K Norton I have. The main thing is to make sure you do not move off your bevel corrector until the bevel is well established and can *easily* pop arm hairs. this is where most get into trouble...they move of the bevel corrector too soon


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

[Alum of Potash]

Nice shots of the paddle Jake. Your results are most inspiring. Since the red paste was of Dovo manufacture, I am wondering about the green paste. Did it come from Solingen too? Or was the CrOx you mention sourced more locally or separately? I would assume the latter, but just to confirm. The reason I ask is because my understanding is that the German green pastes are coarser than the red pastes, with the German black pastes being equivalent to CrOx.

[Gamma]

Once - and only once - I took a maxed out 5k edge and worked it up to a very fine edge on .25 diamond paste. I know someone that was doing that regularly - so I had to try it. I didn't really love the edge though. I think I would have to dink around with it for a while to get the sharp/smooth thing into place. It took me a good long time to get a 5k edge to a point where the diamond paste was effective though - and if I remember correctly - I had nearly 300 passes on the paste.
Since stropping rounds the bevel a bit, I would suppose that the bevel would be somewhat rounded at the end of such a progression. Not that this is a bad thing - it's just a different thing.
My biggest issue with pastes is the mess - I hate it.. it gets all over everything and if I don't wipe the blade down 10x and strop on linen for a good bit it winds up on the leather. Drives me nuts. That's why I got rid of all of them - too messy.

[shakin_jake]

~~~Hi AoP!....the green side of the loom strop is unknown to me for it was present when I recieved the strop. knife center sells this strop and they do not go out of their way to identify what the green side is specifically http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/J42...on#description but I have stropped on just the green side to pick up the edge of a straight razor that began to tug and it improved the edge. I really have little in the way of Cr0X experience to compare this green paste to other green pastes. I was given some fine green chromium paste once that I applied to a small (short) leather strop which I think at the time, I was told it was a finer grade of green Cr0x...the two behave similar


That said, I bought a box of Dovo Red and Black pastes and used the red on the other side of my loom strop...according to the instructions that came with the paste, the black is supposedly a finer paste compared to the red but how it compares with green?, I can't say as I have yet to use it...it's still in the wrapper unused


In regards to using the loom strop & a bevel setter/corretor hone to sharpen razors, I read Bart's post (#14) in this thread http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...or-a-new-honer Reading this post inspired me to give it a go...but I have to say, before trying this out, and as mentioned, it not only works, it works well...I had ample experience honing with coticules prior so comparing honing and doing touch ups w/coticules vs. sharpening razors with the loom strop loaded with paste approach (((COTI *ONLY* WINS HANDS DOWN))) For me, it's so much easier to use a coticule to do touch ups, vs. using pastes...it almost seems unethical, and IMO, it's not a lateral move touching up on red Dovo paste. Sure, it shaves and the shave is not all that bad (it's quite good)...but the coticule is better


What more can I say?...I can't. Speaking strictly for myself, the coticule does it all & I'm quite happy using them. The comfort using my blades to shave with sharpened with coticules and BBW, I have no need, nor desire to use anything else, really


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

[Alum of Potash]

Thanks for clarifying the paste thing Jake, and for the links. The green Solingen paste is ~6 microns, the red ~3 microns, and the black equivalent to CrOx, or ~0.5 microns. So using a sequence from red to green as you mentioned above would be, in theory, to reverse the order. But if it works, hey, it works. In my months spent in France last summer and fall, where paste-stropping is fairly prevalent, I did see someone take factory Dovos and Thiers-Issards and make them shave-ready after numerous laps spent on the Solingen green stuff, skipping the red and black entirely; so no doubt green can be used as a finishing paste, to be followed by routine stropping.

[shakin_jake]

@ A0P... I never said the green that came on my loom strop was German Solingen green. What I said was that the green paste that was applied to the loom strop was 'similar in behaviour' to some known finer grade green Cr0x that was given to me and I had experience with. That said, I believe the two are equal (probably one in the same) vs. one being finer than the other


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

[dk_ace]

~~~ya mon...with the 1 k stone and iron oxide, or red paste, you can get a shaveable edge...I didn't beleive it until I did it myself...I had heard that it can be done but, I'm from Missouri and you gotta show me so, I bought a loom strop and plastered DOVO red paste on one side, but first, I corrected the bevel with a 1K stone and made sure the edge could shave arm hair not only well, but easily...here's the dovo red paste

I did approx. 80 laps (x strokes) on this loom strop pasted with red dovo paste. Remember, I set (corrected) the bevel before with a 1 K Norton

Then I wiped the red paste off the blade and did 15 laps on green chromium oxide

Next I wiped off the remnants of green Cr0x and took the razor to a hanging leather strop & did 70 laps. Done. Very shave ready.


What's important is to make sure you have finished on the 1 K before moving on, and FWIW, I've done this same experiment using my LPB coticule bout w/wet milky slurry, in place of the 1 K Norton I have. The main thing is to make sure you do not move off your bevel corrector until the bevel is well established and can *easily* pop arm hairs. this is where most get into trouble...they move of the bevel corrector too soon


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

Thanks for the help! I'm going to try this again and see if I can get better results. This time around, I won't leave the 1K until the razor is actually really sharp. My method was flawed last time and I didn't have a good guide to follow, this next attempt should be much better.

D

[Pkrankow]

The 90x lapping compound you lapped with may be part of the problem. If that is what I think, it is a sizable grit that is loose. It will really hog into the stone and do bad things to the surface, but it will also remove any dishing or bulk irregularities in a hurry. Take the stone to some 250 or 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper on your lapping plate (glass) then the stone will be well suited to honing.

6000 grit is not really a "finisher" but should leave you ready for one. It is possible to shave off it...but not me.

Phil

OK, my computer is being funny, there is a lot of gold in here that I didn't even see till I posted.
Phil

[brother cavefish]

actually i just started honing myself and i pretty much do it the way the video is shown on here, to start the bevel, i found that taping the spine, also gives a better angle ( a smaller hone line) and that works so far for me, i have also done some "smile" blades, for me again i have to kinda roll/sweep the blade a little with /to the curve if that makes sense-my 2cents

[brother cavefish]

~~~ya mon...with the 1 k stone and iron oxide, or red paste, you can get a shaveable edge...I didn't beleive it until I did it myself...I had heard that it can be done but, I'm from Missouri and you gotta show me so, I bought a loom strop and plastered DOVO red paste on one side, but first, I corrected the bevel with a 1K stone and made sure the edge could shave arm hair not only well, but easily...here's the dovo red paste

I did approx. 80 laps (x strokes) on this loom strop pasted with red dovo paste. Remember, I set (corrected) the bevel before with a 1 K Norton

Then I wiped the red paste off the blade and did 15 laps on green chromium oxide

Next I wiped off the remnants of green Cr0x and took the razor to a hanging leather strop & did 70 laps. Done. Very shave ready.


What's important is to make sure you have finished on the 1 K before moving on, and FWIW, I've done this same experiment using my LPB coticule bout w/wet milky slurry, in place of the 1 K Norton I have. The main thing is to make sure you do not move off your bevel corrector until the bevel is well established and can *easily* pop arm hairs. this is where most get into trouble...they move of the bevel corrector too soon


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

no disrespect intended but are"nt you supposed to do the green, CrOx first and then the iron oxide second

[shakin_jake]

no disrespect intended but are"nt you supposed to do the green, CrOx first and then the iron oxide second

~~~hey meng, no disrespect felt=:-)

the red dovo paste is a cutter, the green is a finisher

did you read Bart's post in the thread I linked to?...he used this set up for a year, using red dovo paste after correcting the bevel...green Cr0x is not going to cut like the red will, the green is more aligned with black dovo paste and black dovo paste is finer than the red...Dovo even mentions this on their black paste packaging, comparing their black with green Cr0x...



Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

[shakin_jake]

Hey Cavefish....I think this is where you are getting green and red confused...http://www2.knifecenter.com/kc_new/s...0Paste&b=paste& they are talking about pastes, and red pastes are generally 3-5 microns and green tube pastes are considered 5-8 microns, making them more abrasive than red pastes, but I'm convinced the green on my loom strop is green Cr0x whixh is .5 micron, and not 5-8 microns of the green pastes, like another poster mentioned, speaking of 'Solingen Green'

As I mentioned earlier, I was given some fine green Cr0x and I applied it to another smaller/shorter strop of mine, and the green on my loom strop feels like this fine green Cr0x


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.