Chirally correct skincare?

[AJS]

Does anybody out there buy into this latest skincare concept/ fad; or is it just another example of the snake oil sellers using pseudo science to blind prospective customers into sampling their wares?
I tried doing some research into the subject last night, but aside from the companies themselves referencing several obscure doctors saying how great various products were, I have been unable to find any serious scientific analysis of the "technology" as a whole.
Still, there are a number of cosmetic magazines and skincare clinics that seem to rave about these products, so I am at a loss what to believe (assuming the magazines aren't benefitting financially from their endorsements of course)
Is anybody using a line of chirally correct cosmetics? Are the results really that spectacular?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Warm regards,
AJS

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

AJS, regarding chirally correct skincare, there is something to it. W/o getting too scientific here, many molecules exist in mirror images of one another - imagine a right and left glove. Take vit E for instance. The body only recognizes D-alpha tocopherol (the right gloved vit E.). Synthetic vit E is DL alpha tocopherol (D=rt glove, L=left glove.) When you have a racemic mixture (containing both D and L gloves), the body or skin can only benefit from either the D OR the L. One of the two gives the desired result while the other is useless or gives undesirable effects. The skin is "chiral" in the sense that it has receptors (think of either a right or left hand for a particular ingredient.) If a product is chirally correct, the co. has separated the molecules and only included the correct glove to fit the correct hand. Now the ingredient can link up with the skin's receptor and provide the most effective results with the fewest adverse reactions. FYI, the FDA mandates that drug manufacturers take into account chirallity when manufacturing drugs. As a licensed esthetician (skincare specialist) I have specifically tested many aftershaves (as I can carry any line of my choosing) and find that hands down, the chirally correct aftershave blows the others away. Hope that helps.

[fisherc]

Nicole:

What you say is true in the general sense but one need not use "chiral" products to obtain the benefits of chirality. Many natural products are naturally "chiral." Also, if the whole chiral skin care industry wants to really expand they and others that promote them need to be more open to disclosure of ingredients and %'s. As you know Zed Labs is the primary producer of chiral skin care and produces for well over half the industry's "chiral brands". As you know, the intelliGents brand is Zed's own "male branded" skin care line. They also make other lines like Sircuit and so many others I cannot even begin. Also, it's not just using Chiral ingredients but the interrelationship and relative % of these ingredients. Many in the chiral business don't use enough of the "active" ingredients to obtain the chiral benefit. All in all, chiral skincare is good stuff and I am not knocking it but if it wants to be taken seriously it needs to step out of the traditional skincare business and focus clearly and plainly on science. Right now it's more "snake oil" than anything else in terms of marketing and branding IMO.

Chris

[joel]

AJS,
Honestly..... Chris F. is the man in this realm. No joke - the man knows more than most of the people actually making the stuff, so what he says - i'd listen to awful closely and put a lot of weight into.

My personal experience with "Chirally Correct" products was Sircuit Skin shampoo/conditioner. Personally I thought it was the best stuff I had tried... but not nearly as good as the price would suggest - and as a result I do not use it any longer, as I find Baxter to perform CLOSE to the level of Sircuit Skin, and it is less than 1/3 the cost.

For what it's worth - I disagree with Nicole in regards to "Chirally Correct" aftershaves "blowing" the others away. I have tried 3 brands of Chirally corrected aftershaves - and I found them all to be radically inferior to high end aftershaves such as DR Harris a/s milk, and CAR's A/S moisture cream/conditioner simply puts the Sircuit Skin, and other "Chirally Corrected" balms to shame.

I have not tried the balm Nicole sells on her website... but given that it is a whopping $39 for a mere 1.7oz and it is basically aloe, tea tree and vitamin E - that is one balm I will not be buying. Allegidly it lasts 90 days - but a $35 tub of CAR's balm will go about a year - and I'd bet the farm it is markedly superior.

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

Chris,

Certainly your point about natural products is well taken. I have always favored botanical oils and seaweed (b/c of the skin's affinity for them) and have tried to source products incorporating these ingredients in a natural preservative system whenever possible. Your point about the concentration of ingredients couldn't be any more on the mark. "Enriched with aloe" is very often purely a marketing tool b/c cos. know that men key into certain ingredients (vit E being another favorite.) Problem is that the active (in this case aloe, for example) is just "traced in" for marketing purposes but is included in such a small quantity in the product, that it isn't sufficient to provide the wonderful anti-inflammatory/moisturizing benefits attributed to it. Ingredients are listed in order of predominance on a label, and as such, you're paying for what's up front. I'm not a "promoter" of any chiral ingredient company or product. With regards specifically to the Intelligents brand, I carry 2 of their 4-5 men's products because of 1)their effectiveness, 2) % of actives and 3)the fact that they are devoid of many of the synthetic chemicals found in most mass-market and prestige level brands. I'm about as removed from the "window dressing" game as it gets. The unregulated nature of the cosmetic industry would have to be a thread unto itself!

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

Dear Moderator, I'm sorry that I cannot comment on your Sircuit shampoo as I have no experience with this product. With reference to my post to AJS, let me qualify it by stating that "I have found that the chirally correct AFTERSHAVE (NOT AFTERSHAVES as you put it) which I am fond of, IN MY OPINION, outperforms any of the aftershaves which were tested by my focus group and client feedback confirms same." Shaving products IN MY OPINION are maintenance items. If it does the trick and you're satisfied with the safety/integrity of the ingredients, get the cheapest thing out there. Save your money and put it into something that will be proactive for you, like a quality sunscreen (a thread unto itself.) We had tested straight aloe gels (w/c I would have loved to carry) from various health food stores at the time, and found this product to be far superior. If you will reread my post, you will hopefully see that short of the last sentence, I attempted to provide AJS with a "taste of chiral technology" and a feeling for my own results as best I could. I have made no point of "hawking my wares" on this or any other forum, and as such, I do not appreciate some of the comments you have made in your post and I feel that they were uncalled for. Suffice it to say that the majority of my men are using a $6 shave cream and are quite happy. You're own price point are your own business, the bashing was unnecessary. Unfortunately, I have been unable to procure Dr. Harris' ingredients on line, however, if you would like to discuss the "VERY EXPENSIVE" chemicals in your shampoo, I'd be happy to field that inquiry privately: Water, TEA Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Wheat Amino Acids, Butylene Glyco,l, Soyamidopropyl Ethyldimonium Ethosulfate, Glycol Distearate, Aloe Vera Gel, PEG-150 Distearate, Panthenol, Polysorbate 60, Polysorbate 80, Hydrolized Keratin, Acetamide MEA, Ethoxydiglycol, Coenzyme A, Coenzyme B5, Coenzyme B6, Coenzyme B12, Coenzyme Q10, Biotin, Cinnamon Extract, Nettle Extracts, Saccharomyces Zinc Ferment, Saccharomyces Copper Ferment, Saccharomyces/Silicon Ferment, Niacin, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid, PEG 90M, Peppermint Oil, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Diazolidinyl Urea, Tea Tree Oil

Thanks for your warm welcome.

[AJS]

Firstly, thankyou everyone for taking the time to respond. To put my initial comments into context. I am a naturally culpable person (and highly susceptible to advertising I might add) so I try to temper everything with a healthy dose of cynicism, therefore I apologise to Chris and Joel if I came across as uneducated and I apologise to Ms Sommers if I seemed rude or dismissive about the type of product you sell. Also, eventhough I am not a scientifically minded person (the humanities were always my strong suite) I do have some experience with this; my girlfriend is a sports science/ nutritional studies student, and I currently fund my own private facility dedicated to research into the captive propogation of rare and endangered wildlife; one of the main areas of focus of this is the nutritional requirements of the animals we maintain (although we do not test suitable cosmetics for them, we do a lot of research into dietary needs so I am familiar with the concept of vitamins and vitamin precursors and the rate of assimilation into the body) Normally I ask people to "dumb down" their responses when the topic of conversation moves into the realm of the scientific, here I feel I should (finger's croosed) understand what is being said. Now that we have my life story out of the way, I had a couple of question.
First, for Chris are you familiar with the Mychelle range of products? I saw a post on SMF about these and that was what prompted my initial interest in chirality. Do you have any experience with this line, or anything to say about the quality and quantity of active ingredients and efficacy thereof?
For Ms Sommers, you mentioned your faith in the aftershave that you recommend was based largely on the results and feedback of your focus group. I would be interested to know more about this. For example what was the size of the group? How long did they test the products? What other products were they tested against? I understand that shaving preferences are a personal thing, but I would be interested to know what criteria your testers used to determine their preferred products, and how you, as a distributor quantify and then interpret this data. It may sound like I am questioning the validity of your methods, but I can assure you this could not be farther from the truth; I just find it interesting to know how other people go about selecting their products; and for me as a consumer, it would be interesting to hear froma person on the business side how you go about testing and selecting the products that you distribute. Any insight you can provide will be most appreciated.
Warm regards,
Alex

[joel]

I have made no point of "hawking my wares" on this or any other forum, and as such, I do not appreciate some of the comments you have made in your post and I feel that they were uncalled for.

Nicole,
Unfortunatly this is one of the key reasons why manufactures/shop owners have had such a "love/hate" relationship with forums - and why it is so terribly uncommon manufactures/retailers actively participate in forums. Please realize - many members of this forum have tried a wide array of products.... and by wide array - I mean an absurd and nearly unbelievable number of grooming/skincare products. I have tried well over 100 aftershave products, and currently own and use more than 30 different aftershaves depending on mood/desired results. As such - it puts me in a reasonable position to intelligently comment on the effectiveness of products, based on my personal experience of shaving my face, which is the bassis and the function of the forum.... for individuals to share their experience/option on varying product. The simple fact of the matter is - you will find at LEAST one or two people who do not like ANY product - no matter how good it may be. I make it clear as day that these are simply my "personal" experiences, from actually using these products. I also state I have not used your product - as a result -I am obviously not commenting on my personal experience with that product. I do however feel it was necessary and reasonable to disagree with your statement as you had originally stated that YOU had tested numerous aftershaves and found "Chirally Corrected" aftershave (which happen to be the "highest tech", and most expensive) and found them to be superior "hands down." I shave my face - not my legs, which will react differently to products, and as a result may have different experiences, but you specifically state chirally correct aftershave is "hands down" superior and "blows the others away" - and the three I had tried were radically inferior, and as a result my personal experiences of applying the products to my face are well warranted, and well "called for." I personally find/found Chirally Correct product to make little difference in the overall effectiveness of a product.

The question was posed for "anyone out there" and varying opinions/discussion simply brings out differing opinions, more information, and a larger base of information to sift through, and weight out. I do not sell ANY products, and as a result have no reason/intention to be biased, I didn't accuse or infer you were "hawking" your product, but you did make a pretty clear blanket statement claiming products like the one you happen to sell "blow the others away." I strongly disagree - and offered my experiences, and examples of superior products. In the past on mensessentials.com, shavemyface.com, etc - Chirally Correct aftershaves have been reviewed, and the general consensus thus far have been they are decent... but just that - decent, nothing outstanding.

Words on these forums are incredibly powerful, and are seen by thousands of people (look how many "guests" are on the forum at any given time, and how many members visit the forum per day) and unchallenged statements such as "X blows all others away" will cause fellas go to out and buy said products. If I - or others feel a statement is incorrect, or may need to be "toned down to reality" a touch in order to save someone say - $39, it is done with no alterior motives. In fact it is well known on forums I personally loathe the ONLY gentlemen who carries/makes the CAR moisture cream I recommended, stated I'd bet the farm was makedly superior to chirally correct products - and I would lay you odds if you were to try it, you would feel the same.

The balm you carry is made of Aloe, Tea Tree and Vitamin E according to YOUR website - and according to what YOU insinuate - my poor quality shampoo also happens to contain all three of these products.... you can talk % of product all day long, but my 10.15oz bottle of shampoo is $13, and your 1.7oz balm is $39 - which is asinine. Aloe, tea tree, and vitamin e are all relatively inexpensive - and the unreasonable cost of the product which is justified by being "chirally correct" is not warranted given the ingredients and the effectiveness, or lack there of, of chirally correct products.

If you think my post was "bashing" I suggest you thicken your skin, or refrain from posting misleading blanket statements. If I get so much as ONE forum member who has been a member for more that one month tell me my inital post on this thread was rude/"bashing"/uncalled for as you state - I will personally extend my apoligies to you, and I will buy, test, take pictures of, and review you balm as I am that confident no one will haven taken my personal option/experiences as anything other than that... my PERSONAL experience/opinions based on the results I had experienced.

[NMMB]

...If I get so much as ONE forum member who has been a member for more that one month tell me my inital post on this thread was rude/"bashing"/uncalled for as you state - I will personally extend my apoligies to you, and I will buy, test, take pictures of, and review you balm as I am that confident no one will haven taken my personal option/experiences as anything other than that... my PERSONAL experience/opinions based on the results I had experienced.

Joel,

I don't think that your initial post was a "bashing". I can see how it may have been interpreted as an un-friendly welcome to a new member, but I cannot see how it could be called "bashing".

If Nicole feels that she, or her products, have been treated unfairly, then on behalf of B&B'ers I'm sorry (in that I feel sympathy, not that I feel any responsibility - I guess that it is a case of getting your sorry straight, rather than getting your story straight). I propose the following; send a few small samples of the aforementioned AS to some of the more senior members here (even choose them at random, if you wish) and allow them to comment about the product(s) here at B&B. In the event that your product(s) are truly superior products I am certain that they will receive appropriate reviews as the members here are interested in one thing (when it comes down to it): a better shaving experience.

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

Joel, At no point in my reply did I question your position to comment on aftershave or anything else for that matter. Let me also qualify what I mean by "aftershave." I am speaking specifically about a product used to moisturize/calm the skin apres shaving as opposed to a product applied mainly for the purpose of imparting a fragrance to the skin even though it's in the form of a lotion/gel/balm. This is typically why I generally refrain from skincare brought to market by companies leveraging the fragrance side of their house. I cannot comment about the 3 radically inferior products w/c you had experience with as I am not familiar. The fact that your shampoo contains 3 of the same ingredients as the aftershave is of no consequence. You're comparing apples to oranges. Your shampoo, IN MY OPINION, is EXPENSIVE, considering the chemical cocktail w/c it contains, especially when you consider the absorption of chemicals through the scalp. I'm not hear to defend my philosophy, only to educate and to help men make healthy choices (hopefully.) What you refer to as a "misleading blanket statement" was my opinion -you have the right to disagree. Having grown up in Brooklyn, I'm a skin chick with very tough skin, however, I didn't, and don't appreciate the tone of your orig. post. No one was soliciting your business. As such, your statement about not patronizing my co., or alluding to the fact that the product "allegedly" lasts 90 days was uncalled for. Most men use copious amounts of product w/c is wasteful and doesn't enhance results. If you wish to further this discussion, it is MY OPINION that it would be more appropriate for you to send a private email in reply. I, personally would like to move on.

[AJS]

I would echo NNMB's comments. Whilst I would concede that Joels comments may have been somewhat disconcerting for a newcomer to the forum, as a senior member he does have a resposibilty to the less experienced who look to him for a lead. This is not a case of anyone taking sides, I don't really think that there are sides to take, it's just me voicing an opinion. Ms Sommer's, Joel, amongst others, has been very gracious since I started frequenting B&B, and has always answered my questions promptly and politely, were it not for this forum I would have gone back to a Gillette Cartridge razor (and the poor results it yields) a long time ago. I have a wide variety of interests and hobbies, consequently I belong to a number of other forums covering a wide range of subjects, most of them seem to perpetuate an atmosphere of backstabbing, cliquiness and outright hostility this is not the case with Badger and Blade, the members are friendly and welcoming, and have been eager to assist right from the start, it would be a shame if you missed out on that.
As for your products, as you seem so proud of them, and the method of selection you used to decide on your product range, perhaps you would consider offering samples to members, if the people here like your products they will not hesitate to endorse them (please don't think that I am fishing for the offer of samples, I live in the UK and wouldn't dream of asking you to send them so far.)
Warm regards,
Alex

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

NMMB, Let me remove "bashing" and replace "cold, unfriendly and unwelcoming." At 1:40 am I was not up to editing :) Your apology was not necessary, but thank you. It wasn't my intent to use this forum as a focus group for products. The companies I deal with, IN MY OPINION, have a consciousness about healthy ingredients and spend more money on what's inside the package than on massive ad campaigns and marketing efforts. Their sampling policy is therefore not on the order of the Estee Lauder chain gang. I would be happy to provide whatever samples I do have (including the aftershave) to five members w/i the US. This would be by no means as an attempt to " right a wrong." Everyone is entitled to their opinion and Joel is no exception. Obviously 2 men can love and hate the same smell and feel of a product. Gents will continue to thrive w/o Joel's business and the LEV8 will continue to hold its rank as my #1 product. In order to comply with your suggestion, the 5 individuals would need to contact me directly with info on skin/hair type, frequency of washing, any skin conditions, address info etc. so that the samples are appropriately dispensed. I will leave the selection of the five to the powers to be.

[NMMB]

... If you wish to further this discussion, it is MY OPINION that it would be more appropriate for you to send a private email in reply...

Nicole,

I must respectfully disagree with you. I see no reason why views and opinions should not be shared publicly. In fact, the open and honest sharing of opinions is part of what makes B&B a wonderful community. You have expressed an opinion and Joel a counter-opinion, while a few others have chimed in with some questions/comments/suggestions. This is how B&B works.

Also, and please don't misinterpret this as rude/condescending/disrespectful, you must understand how you could be treated with a little skepticism here. You have decided to make your presence in the midst of a fairly tightly knit community (of what some might call "fanatics", or even "lunatics" ) as a purveyor of products that you claim to be superior to the products to which we are accustomed. Your position is not unlike that of a missionary who wants to bring "salvation" to the "savages". Depending on how you choose to play the game, and on how the "savages" here at B&B choose to respond, you may find yourself with converts, being ignored as an "outsider", or being boiled alive (so to speak).

I do wish you the best with your business; however, like so many others here, I cannot imagine considering a purchase of a high-end and (relatively) unheard of product without an endorsement by some of the outstanding and senior B&B contributors.

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

NMMB, It was by no means of "hiding" any posts/info from the savages :) that I suggested Joel send a private email. I felt (feel) that the "bantering" would get a bit trite but certainly if no one would tire of it, let it remain in the forefront. I do not claim "superiority" to anyone or to the products to which you are accustomed to as I don't know the particulars of what everyone is using. I only made a statement with regards to the products which I had tested. I hope that clarifies things a bit. BTW, I'd much prefer another cooking method to boiling - it sounds rather bland :)

[NMMB]

Gents,

I think that we need five of our seasoned American brethern to take the challenge and test Nicoles products for us. Who is up to the challenge (please remember, we will need/want a thorough review)?

... BTW, I'd much prefer another cooking method to boiling - it sounds rather bland :)

Nicole,

Should it be necessary I will personally see to it that you are not boiled. How about some sort of spicy cajun dish?

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

Alex, First, concerning MyChelle, I do recall using a tester of one of their hylauronic serums in a health store but I don't remember why I didn't follow up. Possibly I was interested in a higher % of hylauronic but I'm not sure. I would be interested to hear if anyone has any experience with this same serum. Please also let me clarify one important point. I am NOT A DISTRIBUTOR, for any company. As a licensed esthetician, I have "cherry-picked" products from across several different lines and I'm not "married" to any of them. In skincare, my focus has been on incorporating botanicals and marine ingredients. For example, I do not carry the Intelligent Xpose product (same co. that makes the aftershave) as I don't belive in pre-shave scrubs. I'm also not at all impressed with the ingredients, performance or smell of their Face Shield moisturizer. Osea, in MY OPINION, makes wonderfully hydrating, effective non-stripping cleansers. I do not carry their eye cream, mask or body lotion. I'm currently testing some of Outer Seaweeds products to hopefully round out what I can offer to my clients. I try at all costs to procure as natural a product as possible. Unfortunately, many consumers are driven primarily by smell. Then there's the question of the packaging being testosterone-friendly, price, etc, etc. I trust that you can see some of the road blocks here. Would I love to import vials of organic essential oil blends and hydrosols from Bulgaria (w/c I use for myself) and offer it up - I would love to. It just wouldn't fly with my customers w/c is so sad. Believe it or not, I do offer products to select clients w/c aren't on the website b/c the male of the species would think it frou-frou. So, if I'm comenting on a product like shampoo, it may be a product that you don't see at the moment on-line. Ah, life would be so much easier pulling up in front of Bloomingdales with the Lab Series Van! Regarding the focus group, at the time it consisted of somewhere between 10-15 guys, I don't remember exactly. In general, I have skincare products tested for between 4-6 wks as it takes about 4 wks for the cells in the "basement" layer to come to the top of the heap. I did not keep the notes as I saw no need for it once we had an overwhelmingly positive response on the LEV8. I don't claim to be a scientist or as methodical as a lab technician. The samples go out, I field the good, the bad and the ugly and make a decision w/o price as the driving factor. We had tested products from Lily of the Valley (health food store aloe product) to Zirh to Menscience once it came along. I knew that I wanted an aloe-based aftershave and ignored most else. As I became more aware of the effect of all of the chemicals used in many products, the list of possible contenders that I continued to pit against the LEV8 got drastically reduced. I hope this answers your questions for the most part.

[Sam]

I am new to the thread. Ill test shampoo and skin stuff if needbe. I have mildly oily skin, not acne prone at 46, and not sensitive. Fairly tough beard. Hair is short, thin and thinning in the crown and top. Given to psoriasis there. Would love to thicken it up.

I like Nicole's last post. Cherry-picking of all the products and getting feedback, hey, kinda like what we are doing here. I do trust Chris Fisher's knowledge of skin products as that guy has read up on a lot and tested a whole bunch of products. I have been given to going back to more natural and basic skin care. Anthony Logistics Glycolic cleanser smelt good and did ok, but heck, the Purely Natural Glycerin bars work just as well. Right now, I use no face scrub, I use Thayers Witch Hazel as a toner, Natureade 80 aloe vera gel as a moisturizer and aftershave balm and wash my face with Molton Brown oatmeal and milk bars.

Sam

[GentsLLC Shaving-Skincare]

Sam, I'm not sure if they'll allow a newbie to become part of the SAVAGE 5, so I'll have to wait for confirmation on that. The MGA shampoo does help with the itch and flakiness of psoriasis. The best tx I have found so far short of going to Israel, is to use dead sea salt soaks - works for body and/or scalp. I favor Ahava dead sea salts (go for the jar w/o any added fragrance.) I don't sell it (everyone can put their guns down now :) b/c they require that I sell the whole line. I would encourage you to call them for the specific protocol. The Japanese shampoo is very volumizing and an incredibly "clean" product ( I applaude your consciousness about natural ingredients.) I am considering a new product ( a scalp detox by Aeto) that is supposed to address such conditions of the scalp. It's completely natural and would be a 4 month commitment - 1-2x/wk. Let me know if you're up to testing. Concering Mr. Anthony, I find it quite disturbing that they indicate on their bottles that a portion of the proceeds are going to prostate cancer research when they should be more concerned about removing the chemicals (it's not blue or green by nature!) I wouldn't get started on Avon and the breast cancer walk at the moment. Regarding toners, if you are using a ph-balanced cleanser, a toner is unnecessary. Toners came to be b/c cleansers at the time weren't water soluble and so you needed a toner to remove every last trace of the cleanser and to reestablish the ph. This was also an impt consideration for me in choosing cleansers as I think most men could do with eliminating an extra step.

[AJS]

Ms Sommers, how does one go about becoming a select client in order to get access to the products that you don't offer on your website?
As a licensed esthetician I was hoping that you could answer the following question. When you were explaining your product testing, you said that it typically went on from 4-6 weeks, partly because the bottom most layer of skin cells takes around one month to reach the surface layer. In regard to this information, do you think that continually switching aftershave preparations on a daily basis would negate any benefit that a certain product may have? Do you (or anyone else who would like to share their opinion) think that prolonged use of a particular item would be of more benefit for the consumer? Personally, I have always been very brand loyal, and try to stick consistently to one product (this is also symptomatic of my OCD) but ever since I started wet shaving I have been on a buying frenzy and use different products on a daily basis (apart from when I managed to stick with NB products for a whole week.)
Any advice you can offer will be most appreciated.
Warm regards,
Alex

[Sam]

I can be a tester assuming that it does not cause a reaction to the scalp and if so, I would discontinue. I have tried MIn and other detoxifying scalp and shampoo treatments for DHT in men and also tried Nizorale for psoriasis.

Sam