What will I gain from a JNAT?

[mrmotley]

I am getting HHT-2 or -3 edges off my coticules that then become HHT-3 or-4 and, very inconsistently, dare I say rarely, HHT-5 after CrOX on balsa, linen, and leather (and usually only on part of the bladel). I have better success with my full hollow grinds than I do my 3/4 grinds (TI Le Grelots mainly).

I recently bought a Filarmonica from one of our own honemeisters en residence Stefan (mainaman, hope he doesn't mind the endorsement) and was just blown away. It was a solid HHT-5 and supremely comfortable. Having never achieved HHT-5 along the entire length of any of my razors, I came to understand the difference in comfort between HHT-3 or -4 and HHT-5. It's the difference between "pull-cut" and "-cut." No tugging at all.

Of course I have been bugging the heck out of him over email inquiring about his honing methods and of course there is a JNAT involved. Now I acknowledge that there are a lot of other variables involved here: the skill of the honemeister himself and the blade (which I have yet to need to hone myself).

But I've got the bug. I want a JNAT. I'm going to have to sell at least another coti bout to afford one. I just need reassurance that once I've learned the stone it will offer me an edge that I won't be able to achieve on a coticule. Is this the case or am I just kidding myself?

[Woodash]

I am getting HHT-2 or -3 edges off my coticules that then become HHT-3 or-4 and, very inconsistently, dare I say rarely, HHT-5 after CrOX on balsa, linen, and leather (and usually only on part of the bladel). I have better success with my full hollow grinds than I do my 3/4 grinds (TI Le Grelots mainly).

I recently bought a Filarmonica from one of our own honemeisters en residence Stefan (mainaman, hope he doesn't mind the endorsement) and was just blown away. It was a solid HHT-5 and supremely comfortable. Having never achieved HHT-5 along the entire length of any of my razors, I came to understand the difference in comfort between HHT-3 or -4 and HHT-5. It's the difference between "pull-cut" and "-cut." No tugging at all.

Of course I have been bugging the heck out of him over email inquiring about his honing methods and of course there is a JNAT involved. Now I acknowledge that there are a lot of other variables involved here: the skill of the honemeister himself and the blade (which I have yet to need to hone myself).

But I've got the bug. I want a JNAT. I'm going to have to sell at least another coti bout to afford one. I just need reassurance that once I've learned the stone it will offer me an edge that I won't be able to achieve on a coticule. Is this the case or am I just kidding myself?

Asked and answered....

It's different than a coticule. You may like it, you may not, but most would tend to agree that a good Jnat finish is a very comfortable shave.

[johnmrson]

You will get an edge with a very different feel. It's hard to describe but the edges that come of my Shapton12k, Frankonian, Coticules and JNATS are all different.

[heavydutysg135]

This is coming from a guy who has several different Nakayamas, coticules, and eschers so you can take it for what you will. In my opinion, all else equal (which is a big assumption), the quality of the razor will dictate the quality of the edge more than the differences among high quality finishing stones; coticules, eschers, and JNAT's are all great stones capable of producing great edges if used correctly (i.e. proper even bevel has been set in fresh steel and the scratch patterns of each subsequent stone have been removed before moving on to the next). Some razors just have the ability to take and hold a sharper edge compared to other razors and vintage Filarmonica's are at the top of the heap.

The real test would be to shave with the same razor finished by the same honemeister on a coticule and then see if you can tell a big difference...my guess is that you may tell some difference (some may be in your head) but it most likely will not be as big as you think. Another test would be for you to touch up the razor on one of your coticule and then test shave...if your results are an edge almost as good as before then you know that it is either the quality of the razor or the initial bevel set and intermediate honing prior that are the cause for the great edge. If the results are clearly different then the cause for the relatively better edge are either mainaman's honing ability or the difference in his stone relative to yours. I really like my JNAT's but I still feel more of a difference in shave from razor to razor than from quality stone to quality stone (i.e. a better razor honed on a coticule gives me a better shave than a lesser quality razor honed on a high quality JNAT). A properly honed razor on a coticule will also be better than the same razor not properly honed on a JNAT. Of course there are also variations among various coticules and JNATs because they are natural stones....

I would also say that I have been shaving exclusively with straight razors for around 5 years and have probably honed honed several hundered razors for myself and others (which is less experience than some of our members) and I do not think that I would be able to tell you what finishing stone a razor was honed on, among the high quality finishers used correctly, in a blind test. I would definately be able to tell you pretty quickly if the razor was honed properly and sharp enough for my tastes, but there are several different finishing stones/pastes to get there. I could also tell you if a razor is something special or just average using any of the stones previously mentioned as finishers. In summary, I do think that there is a small difference in the highest quality JNAT's being somewhat finer stones than coticules (part of this may be in my head to justify the higher costs) but that there are other factors that will make more of a difference.

[Woodash]

^ I can shave off a Jnat and then rehone the same razor on a coticule and get that distinctive 'coticule' shave - same level of keeness, but very different edge/face feel. It's not that one edge is better than the other, it's just that they are different because of the stone(s). Having said that, I tend to stay on my Jnats most of the time and within that regimen, there are indeed big differences in the shave just from razor to razor.

[Gamma]

If you haven't totally (100%) learned the capability of one or all of your Coticules, it's hard to make a realistic comparison of your Coti edge to a Jnat edge you (or anyone else) might produce.I'm not saying you don't know your Coticule/s - what I am saying is that I don't get tugging when I hone on a Coticule.


I have had comfortable shaves from razors finished on diamond paste, Crox, Thuringians/Eschers, Coticules, Arkies, Synths, and a few unknown hones I've owned in the past too. I can't speak for HHT because my house is in some kind of harmonic convergence zone where the HHT just doesn't work - but I know a good shave when I have one and all my final testing is done with a shave.

[gary haywood]

I've tryed the escher , two j nats .. there is no dout the shave of both are nice , I did like the j nat very much when i got it bang on.. they take some beating for comfort/keeness... If i was you i would stick with the coticule and keep pluging away , they deliver also a very nice mellow edge .... thats all i have now as i've sold my other options... your hht 3/4 maybe differant to mine ... you should get one of the coticulist near you to hone your razor on thee coticule.. that will give you a good bench mark, i'm not sure where you live .. I'm sure paul in the usa would dothat for you or emanuelel in greece (europe).. I had my razor honed by bart.. that gave me a good bench mark..

don't forget filarmonicas are and i no for a fact they deliver ultra smooth shaves... there a damm good razor...they take a edge real well .... same as dorko's etc
gary

[Legion]

Coticules can give an edge that is is fantastic, comfortable, etc etc etc. So can Jnats. Is one better? Well, as the others have said, they are different. If you want to head down the rabbit hole for the sake of experimentation, I say go for it. This is a hobby for most of us, after all, and Jnats are another thing to play with.

If you expect the difference to be overwhelming... you might be disappointed. In the same way that lots of us have bought so many different veins of coticule, because we read that they were this or that. Eventually we found that they may work slightly differently, but when you get it right they all work well.

[Disburden]

Japanese hones can give your edge a much finer sharpness and smoothness level. That being said I use my coticules for finishing stones more often than my Rare Japanese stones, just a preference.

[mrmotley]

Thanks, everybody. I really appreciate all of the advice given.

I imagine I have a lot more work to do in learning the hones I currently own. I am sure that if I keep working with the coticules I own I will achieve edges to my satisfaction. Just today I took a relatively cheap razor back to the hone and started from scratch, intent of honing it to the best of my ability, paying particular attention to the toe and heel. I was able to achieve a solid HHT-5 along most of the blade with a little more focus and attention.

I will admit that I have found my honing success to be very razor dependent. The more hollow they are, the easier it is for me.

A JNAT is very tempting because it is different, and this is a hobby. Yet it is a lot of money to spend on just a different hone. Perhaps I'll do my best to exercise restraint and focus on the task at hand for now.

[jkh]

Debt?

[Doc226]

A smaller wallet.

[mrmotley]

Maxim just got in some new stones and I took the plunge. A very nice stone is on its way to me.

No debt, but yes my wallet is now much smaller.

This stone better be the stone of my dreams.

[Doc226]

So jar what I have gotten off my JNAT is a duller edge than what I had going in. I have not had time to really play around with it too much, so I am still learning.

[mrmotley]

So jar what I have gotten off my JNAT is a duller edge than what I had going in.

You're giving me palpitations.

[closer]

don't forget filarmonicas are and i no for a fact they deliver ultra smooth shaves... there a damm good razor...they take a edge real well .... same as dorko's etc
gary

At the risk of inflating the price bubble, are there any other razors you would also place in this category? And, any modern production razors that take an edge particularly well?

[tlittle]

You're giving me palpitations.

I haven't been able to get much keener yet with my new stone, but if it helps ease your worries my edges are pretty darn smooth!

[mrmotley]

I haven't been able to get much keener yet with my new stone, but if it helps ease your worries my edges are pretty darn smooth!

Smooth is good.

[palpitations]

The way I look at it is this: If I can't master this stone, it'll make a very unique doorstop or paperweight.

[Harvitz81]

I've recently been using my JNAT more as I neglected it for awhile. Mainly because of inconsistency of moving from the coticule to light tomanagura slurry on the Ozuku Asagi and diluting from that. Sometimes I would dull then edge from probably raising too much slurry and diluting too fast.

Now, I recently discovered that the JNAT I bought exclusively for finishing kamisori (A Wakasa asagi) works great as a pre polisher to my Ozuku. I just go from the coticule to the Wakasa with water only then to the Ozuku with water only and have been getting edges that I'm starting to like better than my escher. I have shaved with western razors off the wakasa only, but they were a bit harsh (which surprisingly kamisori finished on this stone are the best edges of any razors I own). Probably steel type, but now I don't have to mess with slurry and am consistently getting very nice edges.

[mrmotley]

I've had a rough day folks, except of course for the JNAT purchase.

Tell me how great my stone will be, how it is going to be the hone of my life, that the razors that encounter this stone will give me the best shaves of my life. That I will pass it on to my son and he to his son, and my grandchild will use it and wonder what his grandfather was like in his younger years.

It is an Ozuku Asagi Range LV5+ from Maxim. He says he's never seen an Ozuku Asagi with Range (which, as I now understand it, means coloration/colored spots). Rare and hard as I understand it.

Pictures from his site: