Arkansas Hone sanity check

[CharlieFoxtrot]

I recently picked up a barber's hone to keep some newly acquired razors in good shape. This fired up my HAD & I determined that I would like to go natural. Coticules seem interesting but I'm a "made in the USA" type of guy. Can you put a shave ready edge on a razor using an Arkansas progression of Soft/Hard/Black and/or Translucent? I understand that they are slow cutters but theoretically possible. How practical is this thought process? I have time so that's not the issue, but I don't want to spend weeks setting a bevel.

[Gamma]

It's totally possible. Trust me. :0). A really good black or translucent Ark is going to cost some coin but the soft and hard aren't too pricey.
I really recommend getting the longest and thickest stone/s you can - the stroke count will go down and if you need a narrow surface for a warped blade you can turn the stone on its side to hone.
You'd be surprised how fast you can set a bevel on a Soft Ark... it's not all that slow. Hands down - a 1k Synth will be faster though.

[Nobody]

I concur with Gamma. Sounds spot on. True hard arkies are a little less pricey than coticule if that eases the pain any. Coticule just seems a little more versatile in that it works across a little broader spectrum of need. Both, used correctly, will work just fine.

[Slash McCoy]

Yes, you could hone a razor from can't shave to can shave, with just a progression of arkies. It does take quite a bit of rubbing, though. And as Gamma says, a nice big rock is a hyooooge plus. A slurry stone of some sort is nice for a hard or a black/translucent. I have cheated a bit and used diamond paste on the rock, as a sort of slurry, and it speeds up the process something fierce. Most arkie users use oil rather than water, and this works well with just a couple dots of diamond paste. Normally I would not recommend a set of arkies, but since you particularly want American made tools, I will say that it CAN be done. Be sure to lap them well. Use fine wet/dry paper, 1k or 2k, glued to a heavy piece of glass, for lapping your rocks. Use a whole sheet, and work the rock diagonally, corner to corner, then switch to the other two corners. Drawing a grid on the stone with a pencil will help you to know when your rock is flat, because the grid will remain on parts of the stone that are still low. When the grid is completely gone, your rock is lapped flat. It will likely take more than one sheet of paper for the harder stones. Once lapped, the hard and harder rocks will stay flat for a very long time. The soft arkies will eventually dish after lots of hard use, though, so you will do it again at some point.

Try to avoid the rocks that are glued to wood. You want both sides available, especially on the soft and medium stones, which are great for pocketknives. Reserve one side for razors, the other for knives or other edged tools. Think BIG. A rock that is at least 2-3/4" wide allows you to hit the whole edge with very little "X" motion, if the edge is straight.

I would also get a silica or aluminum oxide or carborundum stone for heavy edge repair. No sense putting a lot of wear on a good soft Arkie by breadknifing an ebay rescue on it when you can use a $10 synthetic, and still be using Made In America stuff.

The finish on a freshly lapped black or translucent that is left from the sandpaper will last quite a while, because these rocks are really really hard wearing. So you might want to hone a few kitchen knives on a freshly lapped one, to smooth that surface a bit. Or, you can hone with lather. The lather creates a buffer film that prevents the rock from scratching so deeply into the steel. It does force you to use a lot more laps, though.

Even your finest Arkies can use a bit of help. Consider following up with a nice bench strop loaded with 1u diamond paste, and then another loaded with CrOx.

BTW, aren't Nortons made in the USA? A set of Nortons will be a much much faster set of stones. They come in 3" widths and don't cost much more than Arkies.

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I found a pretty good deal on a hard/soft combo and the price is right for the black. What's the ballpark, time wise, for bringing a razor back to shave ready compared to a synthetic? Barring any repairs of course. Additionally, I was looking around for a loupe. Any suggestions on brand? 10x or bigger?

[Slash McCoy]

A bigger loupe is definitely better. I got mine from Harbor Freight, pretty darn cheap. The one I got clamps to the frame of my eyeglasses. Very convenient.

Figure about 3 times as long to get an edge out of an Arkansas progression vs a Norton setup. The harder ones cut excruciatingly slow. The softer ones, not so bad.

[CharlieFoxtrot]

BTW, aren't Nortons made in the USA? A set of Nortons will be a much much faster set of stones. They come in 3" widths and don't cost much more than Arkies.

I think I'm going with a natural for some historical perspective. I'm a history geek as well as a shave geek. I guess I'm well rounded. SWMBO probably would beg to differ though. I may end up being mistaken but I read online that Norton is American owned but the manufacturing is in Mexico. I don't believe everything on the Internet but to honest I have not searched this down myself. Coticules are not out of the question, but they seem a bit over priced to me. I understand they can set a bevel and produce a shave ready razor but I imagine that a finisher is still needed. For the price there seems to be a lot of other options out there.

[tlittle]

You can definitely finish on a coticule. I guess it just depends on what you like from an edge. I've been very happy with all the coticule-finished edges I've received from other more experienced members (although I'm not at the point where I can fully replicate them myself ). That said, I can still get a respectable finish using just my one stone.

True, there can be other stones that will leave a keener edge, or smoother, or insert-property-here, but a coticule can bring you from bevel setting to shave-ready **IF** you are willing to put in the time to figure out how to use the stone. This goes for any stone, but natural stones in particular all have their own personality.

[Nobody]

Yes, you could hone a razor from can't shave to can shave, with just a progression of arkies. It does take quite a bit of rubbing, though. And as Gamma says, a nice big rock is a hyooooge plus. A slurry stone of some sort is nice for a hard or a black/translucent. I have cheated a bit and used diamond paste on the rock, as a sort of slurry, and it speeds up the process something fierce. .

That method also works with lapidary abrasives which are quite inexpensive. I bought 1/4lb 14k AlO for the trifling sum of $5 recently. Naturally, that could last years as it takes just a small quantity to get fast results even on razors coticule doesn't seem to work quickly on. If you do it just right it is even possible to set a bevel surprisingly quick and with a more finished edge than might be imagined. Artificial slurry methods pack a lot of punch.

@Charlie: You were asking how long it takes to bring back an edge using an arkie. I've no synthetics to compare with so answering that portion isn't possible. However, as far as bringing back an edge goes from a pure time standpoint, it seems to take me about a minute per shave taken on the blade and I'm in no kind of hurry during the process. I also don't use pasted strops of any kind just leather between shaves. As you might guess, I refresh an edge pretty often, say about every 10 shaves more or less. That's pretty much always done on an arkie or some close relative followed by a quick polish on a very high grit "thing". The high grit part is optional but does push the edge up a little in quality. Of course, if you are talking about a neglected or damaged edge, well a lot of rubbing time could ensue... emphasis on "a lot".

[Alum of Potash]

I think I'm going with a natural for some historical perspective. I'm a history geek as well as a shave geek. I guess I'm well rounded. SWMBO probably would beg to differ though. I may end up being mistaken but I read online that Norton is American owned but the manufacturing is in Mexico. I don't believe everything on the Internet but to honest I have not searched this down myself. Coticules are not out of the question, but they seem a bit over priced to me. I understand they can set a bevel and produce a shave ready razor but I imagine that a finisher is still needed. For the price there seems to be a lot of other options out there.

Norton is currently owned by Saint-Gobain Abrasives, a Canadian company. I believe their artificial oil-stones are made in Mexico. U.S., Canada, Mexico--all are in North America, if that's any consolation.

[CharlieFoxtrot]

Thanks for the clarification on Norton. There are definitely many paths to the same center. So far, I'm going to pick up a soft and hard Arkie. Razor bevel setting aside, I could use good stone for my knives as well. I'm on the fence with a finisher. Thanks to the guys with preexisting HAD I'm looking into Coticules. I may go with a bout just to see what I'm getting into. The idea of one stone going from start to finish is pretty cool though.

[snowshooze]

I have a Norton IM313 from The Best things. Look in their woodworking section, then sharpening and then Norton multistones.
This is a special. The Best Things has Norton custom fit a fine India stone ( This is the coarse stone here ) Hard Translucent White Arkansas Stone ( The medium ) , A Hard Black Arkansas (finish ) I use either straight water, of dishwashing soap and water on it... never oil, or forever oil.. and I hate getting oil all over.
I still use this chunk of Portuguese tile after that.. not sure what it is... ( Blades really refine on it as seen in the microscope...) then of to the 15K slurry slate.. and a bunch of stropping.
But I am going to sell off my Norton 220/1000 and 4000/8000 synthetics. The black Arkansas is about a mile beyond the 8K.
The synthetics are great, but since I quit logging... I don't need to sharpen an axe very often. 8K seems extremely coarse compared to this premium Norton Black Arkansas, and with 11 1/2" x 2 1/2"... it is a pleasure to use. Cuts quite quickly. I have a smaller black Arkansas that doesn't compare to this one though.
I still have yet to attain a perfect edge, although I am getting in there. I think I will be adventuring off into 1/4 micron diamond slurry next..
So.. I like my Arkansas a lot. Good luck.

[Alum of Potash]

This thread has been sleeping for a while, but I just wanted to correct something I wrote earlier. Saint-Gobain is a French company, not Canadian.

[paco664]

just saying... ihave a surgical black and a translucent.... i just don't see this "slow" thing people are complaining about....

use pressure as you go lighten up till you use no pressure.... easy peasy....

i can finish on the arkie as fast as i can with anything else....

[Rschan]

What will be able to get finish after a C12K Black or translucent.?

What are the best places to pick a Black/translucent Arkie ?

[SliceOfLife]

That's (the need for pressure) more it than "slow" They're oilstones that cut using an action like a cheese grater. The particles don't stick up and gouge like a synth whetstone. The steel is shaved by the gaps between the particles. This is why the stone clogs so badly if not used with oil for a long period of time. You're literally packing metal finings down into the part of the stone that cuts.

With pressure, Arkansas were actually popular for being particularly fast for how fine they cut. Obviously short of using pressure that would be unacceptable on a whetstone, they aren't going to cut like a whetstone packed with as much abrasive as the manufacturer could get in there... but to call them slow when used as they intended isn't accurate. However, most razor honers were brought up on the Frankenstein scream "PRESSURE.... BAAAAAADDD!" So Arkansas used as a progression stone will be almost unbelievably slow in those hands. Practically not doing anything-level slow.

Rschan. Black vs Translucent isn't a comparison one can make. Two translucents can be just as different as a translucent and a black. These days I believe most people find the recently mined stuff to be denser in translucent than black. I found that I myself got denser vintage blacks than vintage translucents. I haven't actually had a modern black... but my modern translucents (I've owned maybe 10), were all subpar compared to my vintages.

just saying... ihave a surgical black and a translucent.... i just don't see this "slow" thing people are complaining about....

use pressure as you go lighten up till you use no pressure.... easy peasy....

i can finish on the arkie as fast as i can with anything else....

[life2short1971]

I have a Black 6x3 I recently acquired in a trade and I would say its one of my faster finisher actually. Its still getting more of a glassy look each time I use it since lapping but it fells like glass to my fingers and razor. I think for the money they are an excellent value.

[SliceOfLife]

They're certainly a hugely underrated stone in our communities and surprisingly undervalued. (I own 2 CF... one as big a freaking truck and they are not superior to Arks except in looks and history) When I see Vintage charnleys listed for $300 and the same size vintage Arks ending at $40. I titter.

A 10x2.5x1.5" black sold recently for $120ish... if only I had the cash... sooo tempting.

[Gamma]

Black is not a grade of Arkansas stone. A Translucent or Surgical Black are 'grades' of 'True Hard' as one seller puts it.
Surgical black is graded to be as dense as Translucent. I think the minimum specific gravity for Trans/Surg Black Arks is spec'd at 2.75 on at least one retail site. Not sure if that site's data is correct though. Someplace there is some kind of Gov't document that lists the SG of Arkansas stones, but I never tracked it down.
Basically - the higher the SG of an Arkansas stone, the harder/finer its grade. Pure Quartz (I think) is 2.5 if I remember correctly.
Most regular black Arks are 'hard', and they're less dense than Surgical Black. Some hard Arks are much softer than others... and some are nearly as hard/dense as a Translucent or Surg Black. The harder 'hard' arks make great finishers.
Translucent/Surg Blacks are slow stones - significantly slower than a lot of other hones out there. Not painfully slow unless you're working C135 or vintage Swede steel or something comparable, but still compartively slow to many other options. I'm talking about finishing to max, not just to 'that's good enough'.