Audiophiles... $7200 stereo cables?!?

[castlecraver]

Caught this on Slashdot and thought it would be interesting to get some perspective from the audiophile crowd here...

The "Anjou Speaker Cable" markets a nearly 1-inch in diameter, "no compromise" audio speaker cable and purports of being the finest amp-to-speaker connection available anywhere. They have a very lengthy and detailed list of claims on their website, here :(http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm)

Now, I'm of the understanding that $7250 could buy you an awfully damned nice stereo amplifier itself, and that's what they're asking for a single 12-foot pair of their cable.

I also belong to the Center for Inquiry Transnational, which is basically a skeptic's society. Through them, I receive James Randii's newsletter -- he's a very well-known skeptic who fights for truth and reason within the science, education, and the media. He's particularly famous for offering a $1 million USD prize for anyone who can conclusively prove a supernatural ability or demonstrate paranormal phenomena, a prize that has been pursued by hundreds, but to this date been unawarded. Think what you will about our particular approach to skepticism -- but the reason I bring him up is that in respect to the $7250 speaker cables, he says:

Well, we at the JREF are willing to be shown that these “no-compromise” cables perform better than, say, the equivalent Monster cables. While Pear rattles on about “capacitance,” “inductance,” “skin effect,” “mechanical integrity” and “radio frequency interface,” – all real qualities and concerns, and adored by the hi-fi nut-cases – we naively believe that a product should be judged by its actual performance, not by qualities that can only be perceived by attentive dogs or by hi-tech instrumentation. That said, we offer the JREF million-dollar prize to – for example – Dave Clark, Editor of the audio review publication Positive Feedback Online, who provided the above rave review. If Mr. Clark should choose to apply for the prize, he would be unlike John Atkinson of Stereophile Magazine – see randi.org/jr/121004science.html#11 – who made great noises about being ready to snap up the million, then got distracted by things such as gullible readers who accepted his claimed abilities, and backed out. But we’ll see…

I was also under the impression that Monster Cables are notoriously overpriced. But when a well-known scientific skeptic goes out of his way to call "bullshit" on a consumer electronics product, and hurl barbs at the "audiophiles" who claim these cables offered a noticeable benefit. For example:

"In extended listening sessions, I found the cables' greatest strength to be its PRAT. Simply put these are very danceable cables. Music playing through them results in the proverbial foot-tapping scene with the need or desire to get up and move. Great swing and pace—these cables smack that right on the nose big time."
-Dave Clark, Editor Positive Feedback Online

What does "danceable" mean? How exactly do stereo cables improve the "swing and pace" of one's music?

So my question to the audiophiles of the forum (out of sheer curiosity and interest... not putting anyone's hobby down in any way) is... can you really tell the difference? How much do you have to spend on a stereo amp and speakers for the difference between a $7250 and a $50 speaker cable to be truly appreciable?

I realize that product opinions are incredibly subjective based on the person, as with cars, cigars, and shaving brushes. But there's something about this stereo cable business (and I've read a considerable bit about HDMI cables in the same vein) that seems a bit different to me. What do you think? I'm interested in "non-audiophiles'" gut reactions as well.

[farace]

My non-audiophile (late-60s AR XA turntable, early 70s Kenwood receiver, home-rebuilt Advent speakers, Realistic 8-track player/recorder) gut reaction is that I love seeing the air let out of inflated claims, and anyone that would even consider spending that kind of money on speaker cables deserves to have them. (Personally, I like finding cheapskate solutions like on www.tnt-audio.com.)

People will believe anything. I was at a guitar shop several years ago and happened to mention that I use an old-fashioned curly cable for my bass. Another customer wondered why, and I jokingly said that people spend megabucks for vintage guitars and vintage amps and still can't get the vintage sound they're after, and the reason is because they're not using the old-style cables. But he was believing me, so I laid it on thicker and told him that most folks don't realize that the twist in the cable actually puts a spin on the signal, keeping it aligned properly, much like a bullet or a thrown football spins for accuracy. "Wow! Really!?!" I could have sold that guy some cables then and there, and marked them up. (Fact is, the curly cable does sound different, but it's only because it acts like a tone control, probably because of too much capacitance.) I never did let him know I was pulling his leg, so I may have contributed to some misinformation making the rounds.

[sparkchaser]

I was reading the slashdot comments when I decided to drop in here and see if anything was going on.

How funny.

[scagooch]

I used to be an audiophile until i realized that the equipment was overpriced and poorly made. Most speaker maker don't even use their own drivers.

[ada8356]

As a non-audiophile I call BS. This would have to a prime example of diminishing returns - they might provide for a slightly better sound, but nothing that would justify the price... but hey, if you've got that kind of money and that's how you want to spend it, then I'm not going to stop you.

[masonjarjar]

one word: Placebo.

That being said, I have always had "comprable" quality interconnects based on the equipment that I own. I stepped up a notch and got slightly better cables (that is, I spent $15 on cables instead of using the cheap-ass ones that components come with) when I upgraded from a Kenwood Receiver to an Arcam Integrated Amp. I also got some better speaker cables too, I think I spent $50 on those, which is the most I've ever paid for any kind of wire.

I really do think there's a psychological aspect to it. If you have a $1000 amp, a $1000 cd player, and you have cheap wires connecting them, your mind starts going.. and pretty soon you find yourself ordering new cables. Now, what's appropriate is entirely subjective and bound by the constraints of your wallet. $7000 cables?? Maybe if you have a $25,000 amp and Speakers.. You'll sure be able to focus more on your music because your mind won't be distracted by worrying that your "cheaper" cables might be somehow polluting the sound..

Really though, there are some pretty crazy things that Audiophiles spend their money on to "improve" their sound. If I had the wealth to do that, I'd probably be there too..

But.. yea.. what does "Pacing" (and all those other made-up words) really mean?

-Mason

[papasmurf]

My non-audiophile (late-60s AR XA turntable, early 70s Kenwood receiver, home-rebuilt Advent speakers, Realistic 8-track player/recorder) gut reaction is that I love seeing the air let out of inflated claims, and anyone that would even consider spending that kind of money on speaker cables deserves to have them. (Personally, I like finding cheapskate solutions like on www.tnt-audio.com.)

People will believe anything. I was at a guitar shop several years ago and happened to mention that I use an old-fashioned curly cable for my bass. Another customer wondered why, and I jokingly said that people spend megabucks for vintage guitars and vintage amps and still can't get the vintage sound they're after, and the reason is because they're not using the old-style cables. But he was believing me, so I laid it on thicker and told him that most folks don't realize that the twist in the cable actually puts a spin on the signal, keeping it aligned properly, much like a bullet or a thrown football spins for accuracy. "Wow! Really!?!" I could have sold that guy some cables then and there, and marked them up. (Fact is, the curly cable does sound different, but it's only because it acts like a tone control, probably because of too much capacitance.) I never did let him know I was pulling his leg, so I may have contributed to some misinformation making the rounds.

OMG that was you ???????




Nick

[boboakalfb]

One word...Ouch.

[rickw]

How much do these thing weigh? Do you need a forklift to move them.

[ouch]

At $7,200 per 12' pair, they're not even the most expensive. I know that the Nordost Valhalla cables run about $4,200 per meter, and at this point there are probably even more expensive offerings available.

High end audio, which can be such a source of pleasure, is unfortunately rife with all sorts of voodoo and junk science. A newsgroup I used to frequent had a long standing offer (which is now probably in the several thousands of dollars range) to anyone who could distinguish between high end cables and ordinary speaker wire under strict double blind testing. Needless to say, it remains unclaimed.
The "golden eared" reviewers (anyone surprised that Corey Greenberg of shaveblog fame was one of them?) make all sorts of ludicrous claims, yet never seem to be able to deliver. Perhaps they serve as psychics in their spare time, another profession where the practitioners fail to demonstrate their powers, usually saying that they can only use them for "good". "Good" is apparently defined as not collecting a million bucks for themselves, but apparently its alright to clean out the bank accounts of little old ladies.

An interesting aside would be the strange case of Arthur B. Lintgen, a medical doctor with a compendious knowledge of classical music. He also writes for The Absolute Sound, by far the best of the audio rags. He was tested by James Randi and passed, but makes no claim to the supernatural. He has the extraordinary ability to identify pieces of classical music by simply looking at a vinyl LP. Truly astonishing, no doubt, but nothing magical at all. He (I don't want to say "simply") trained himself to be able to identify loud and soft passages on the recording by site and match them to known works. Amazing!

[Doc4]

An interesting aside would be the strange case of Arthur B. Lintgen, a medical doctor with a compendious knowledge of classical music. He also writes for The Absolute Sound, by far the best of the audio rags. He was tested by James Randi and passed, but makes no claim to the supernatural. He has the extraordinary ability to identify pieces of classical music by simply looking at a vinyl LP. Truly astonishing, no doubt, but nothing magical at all. He (I don't want to say "simply") trained himself to be able to identify loud and soft passages on the recording by site and match them to known works. Amazing!

They got ... um ... labels.

[farace]

OMG that was you ???????




Nick

How do you like the cable?

[analog_kid]

They got ... um ... labels.

Zing!

A bit off-topic, but does anyone else think that all this HD video will follow in the footpaths of Hi-Fi audio, which in my opinion(save for a few niche groups) is pretty much dead thanks to the MP3 revolution? Will portable, lower quality video take the place of 1080p?

[ouch]

They got ... um ... labels.

Of course, I meant to say un-labeled LP"s. You can't even blink on this site.



For the record, I use Goertz Alpha-Core cables and interconnects.

[tam.audio]

Zing!

A bit off-topic, but does anyone else think that all this HD video will follow in the footpaths of Hi-Fi audio, which in my opinion(save for a few niche groups) is pretty much dead thanks to the MP3 revolution? Will portable, lower quality video take the place of 1080p?

I hope to God that low resolution audio and video never take the place of HD or "good" quality audio.

As for those cables, I call BS. I'm an audio engineer and have worked in a professional music studio, and they don't use nearly that "high quality" connectors. Then again, a lot of studios like to use professional gear that is near in quality to consumer. 'Cause making it sound good on consumer speakers and cables is what's important.

[ouch]

An even bigger rip is custom "power cables". Imagine, hundreds of bucks for a stiff cable to plug between your amp and wall socket.

Will someone please explain how after traveling many miles through your local power supplier's cables, the signal will be cleaned up in the last two feet?

[tam.audio]

An even bigger rip is custom "power cables". Imagine, hundreds of bucks for a stiff cable to plug between your amp and wall socket.

Will someone please explain how after traveling many miles through your local power supplier's cables, the signal will be cleaned up in the last two feet?

The only thing that will do this is a Power Conditioner that evens the voltage powering the device. I don't believe a custom power cable has this ability.

[180gVinyl]

$7200 on cables - Bl**dy puddled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A nice slab of vinyl through a moving coil stage v MP3 - Gimme that black magic

[Mysterion]

As referenced above, you can spend far, far more for both interconnects and speaker cables. If you're looking for a reasonable return on investment, it's probably better put into another part of the system. Cables and interconnects *do* make some difference, but there's a point of diminishing returns. Recall that Stevie Ray Vaughn--reknowned by many for his tone--insisted on a certain model of cheap, Radio Shack-sourced guitar cord; nothing else would do.

High-end audio is rife with "compensator" equipment, pricey gear whose chief benefit is bragging rights. Mortgage-sized investments don't always guarantee a truly great sounding system. I've worked in recording studios as an engineer, and I found the experience ruined me for home stereo; nothing sounded good anymore, not even gear more expensive than the studio used. These days, I get more satisfaction out of assembling a "guerilla" system; carefully matched "bargain audiophile" picks (new and used) that work together far better than the total cost would suggest. I've got a living room system that sounds flat amazing for $500 (Yes, it's a little weak on bass, but it's fantastic for small jazz ensemble and vocal music.)

Finally--A high-end freak I know opined that he hated going to see live music performed: He felt the sound was inferior. Each to his own, I say, but he somehow seems to be missing the point. Some of the best shows I've ever experienced have ended in fried capacitors and blown speakers. (Thanks, Bootsy.)

[ClunkClunk]

These days, I get more satisfaction out of assembling a "guerilla" system; carefully matched "bargain audiophile" picks (new and used) that work together far better than the total cost would suggest. I've got a living room system that sounds flat amazing for $500

I have a system like that in my living room. It's more than I need for my apartment, and suits 5.1 movies wonderfully. It took a bit of research, and some waiting around for deals, used and new, but once it came together, I'm a happy camper. My previous neighbor was quite upset that his $2,500 system from some big box retailer doesn't even come close to the clarity and unity of my system. Calibration also helps too. An SPL meter can do wonders with even a cheap home theater system.