I imagine it would take weeks of constant lapping to wear out my razor size Jnat. Imo wear is not an issue with 325/400 diamond plates, the rougher surface bothers me more.
How To Get The Most Out Of A J-Nat
- Thread starter raccoonandbrush
- Start date
Here is my no name Japanese hone. My Father bought it 20 years ago when we lived in Yokohama...I think it was 10,000 yen. It also just occurred to me that the nagura is a Oozuku tomo, and not the same as the no name rock, so that may be my problem...either way unless i really bear down on the nagura with pressure I get nothing...and even then I just barely can see anything in the water...although there is an earthy smell. Maybe I dont need much slurry at all and I am trying to hard. The surface is very smooth, and semi reflective when dry- I cant see my face it it, but if i look at a very shallow angle i can see my surroundings in it.
usually reddish stones are bit on the soft side, and your tomonagura being an asagi could be harder than the base stone. Of course this is general rule for stones and there are exceptions.
Ok, I guess I need to stop blaming my tools and just sit down and rub for as long as it takes, then compare edges with a DMT slurry.
Thanks everyone!
And apologies to the OP for the thread hijack
Thanks everyone!
And apologies to the OP for the thread hijack
I am by no means an expert on this, but wouldn't the base color be asagi, and the swirls kan? So (X mine) asagi kan?
Also, that is a beautiful stone, Kentos... and very cool that it is a family heirloom.
Ah, Nakayama is the mine, not the type of stone? I have a bunch to learn yet...
Yeah, Nakayama is a mine, which I'm not sure how you would determine the originating mine on a vintage stone that is not stamped, or you don't know the lineage. Asagi is the greyish color... so Nakayama asagi would be a stone that color from the Nakayama mine. Kan refers to the rings. So, I believe it would be Nakayama asagi kan (replace Nakayama with whatever mine it's from)... or if you don't know the mine you could just say Japanese asagi kan hone.
I'm learning all this stuff too, so maybe someone who really knows there stuff can jump in and correct me if I am wrong on this.
*edit* Maxim at JNS has this page with some great info http://japanesenaturalstones.blogspot.com/p/about-natural-stones.html
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Maxim so far has been the best source of information. Asagi from what I have read refers to the blueish color. It is also associated with "blue egg color". I wouldn't focus on mines and mainly focus on what is known for sure. Asagi Kan so far is a given about the stone, the next thing could be see if Maxim would be willing to rate its hardness if you were willing to spend the money on shipping etc?
Epiphany!! All this time I though they were all different types of finishing stones. Thanks guys. So what is oozuku, the mine?
. So what is oozuku, the mine?Epiphany!! All this time I though they were all different types of finishing stones. Thanks guys
Yessir... scroll down about 1/4 of the way on that page at JNS I linked to above... he has a list of all the major Japanese hone quarries.
Hello Matt
I think it’s fantastic that you have inherited an authentic Japanese tennen toishi from your father. You might be the only one here who can stake that claim. The tomae strata stone that you have in front of you there is from the Yamashiro area, a little valley just west of Kyoto and most likely from the town of Umegahata. It could very possibly be from either the Nakayama mine or the Shobu or the Narutaki mine. Each of these mines and others nearby share the Hon Kuchi Naori, a section of the Tamba Terrane that in some spots displays a rolled or ball form in the stratas configuration. If I could examine the back of the stone if it has some kawa-skin I could most likely pin it down like I have with the other 2 samples below.
The strata is tomae, the ring pattern is kan or wood grain like as in tree rings. This is most assuredly a very hard stone and with out question it would benefit by the use of a nagura stone. To raise a slurry you have 3 options: the tomonagura you have, a Gifu nagura, or a diamond nagura. Each has benefits and drawbacks. I suggest that the tomonagura you have will do the trick, but you should also try raising a slurry with a diamond nagura like a fine DMT or an Atoma 600-1200. The diamond DN nagura has the unique feature of creating a slurry that is an exact match in composition to the host stone because it is made from the host stone. The quality and fineness of your host stone I am sure will provide you with all the features you are looking for in a slurry if you made one up with a diamond plate.
Here are a couple examples from my stock of tomae strata stones with a kan pattern similar to yours.
　
The next one is very much darker.
Using these really hard stone is a challange, but a slurry will help you bridge the gap between inexperience and a possible fantastic edge to your razor. I have added some more photos and some information to my blog at TheJapanBlade if anyone is interested in seeing what a razors edge looks like under a 350x EPI microscope. Good Luck with your stone, Alx
I think it’s fantastic that you have inherited an authentic Japanese tennen toishi from your father. You might be the only one here who can stake that claim. The tomae strata stone that you have in front of you there is from the Yamashiro area, a little valley just west of Kyoto and most likely from the town of Umegahata. It could very possibly be from either the Nakayama mine or the Shobu or the Narutaki mine. Each of these mines and others nearby share the Hon Kuchi Naori, a section of the Tamba Terrane that in some spots displays a rolled or ball form in the stratas configuration. If I could examine the back of the stone if it has some kawa-skin I could most likely pin it down like I have with the other 2 samples below.
The strata is tomae, the ring pattern is kan or wood grain like as in tree rings. This is most assuredly a very hard stone and with out question it would benefit by the use of a nagura stone. To raise a slurry you have 3 options: the tomonagura you have, a Gifu nagura, or a diamond nagura. Each has benefits and drawbacks. I suggest that the tomonagura you have will do the trick, but you should also try raising a slurry with a diamond nagura like a fine DMT or an Atoma 600-1200. The diamond DN nagura has the unique feature of creating a slurry that is an exact match in composition to the host stone because it is made from the host stone. The quality and fineness of your host stone I am sure will provide you with all the features you are looking for in a slurry if you made one up with a diamond plate.
Here are a couple examples from my stock of tomae strata stones with a kan pattern similar to yours.
　
The next one is very much darker.
Using these really hard stone is a challange, but a slurry will help you bridge the gap between inexperience and a possible fantastic edge to your razor. I have added some more photos and some information to my blog at TheJapanBlade if anyone is interested in seeing what a razors edge looks like under a 350x EPI microscope. Good Luck with your stone, Alx
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Thanks Alx! My Dad will be happy know he spent money wisely on it.
The stone is glued to a wood base...I wonder if I should try to remove it? Or would I regret trying LOL. I'll check out your blog...
The stone is glued to a wood base...I wonder if I should try to remove it? Or would I regret trying LOL. I'll check out your blog...
- Thread starter
- #52
Great thread guys!
Kent
Sorry to have screwed up on your name as the original poster, lovely stone by the way.
Matt, I feel that a nagura stone should be softer than the base stone and I agree with Maniaman
the base stone should be harder than any nagura or tomonagura used on it. When you work the slurry from the nagura/tomonagura it will gradually break down to become muc finer. You can finish on the base stone with water or if you like.
And I have been thinking a bit about how nagura actually works. Maybe someone here might let me know if I am on the right or wrong track or if they have read it somewhere.
I suspect that nagura is in essence a mechanical agent, and I believe that when I use a nagura it is engaging the surface of the main stone in such a way that the hard grit portion of the nagura attacks the softer binder of the main stone and in doing so frees up, in a semi controlled way, the hard cutting girt of the main stone in small quantities. This then allows the grit from main stone to be free to abrade the blade. This grit in the very hard main stone is normally bound up in a very hard binder and is locked up and will not release under the slight pressure normally used or exerted by a razor being honed. A chisel or other heavy tool might, but a razor won’t.
It is not imperative to use a nagura on a soft main stone because those softer stone will readily release their own slurry. It is only when using hard or very hard main stones that you need a slurry or nagura stone like in the nagura progression systems some here on this forum use. The Gifu nagura grit particles might have some sharpening effect but I don’t think that they are hard or sharp enough to remove very much steel on their own, and that during the use with nagura, the grit of the base stone is being released and doing most of the heavy lifting. After all, these big buck finishing stones, like from the better known mines have to be paying for their keep. Any thoughts on this? Alx
　
　
　
Sorry to have screwed up on your name as the original poster, lovely stone by the way.
Matt, I feel that a nagura stone should be softer than the base stone and I agree with Maniaman
the base stone should be harder than any nagura or tomonagura used on it. When you work the slurry from the nagura/tomonagura it will gradually break down to become muc finer. You can finish on the base stone with water or if you like.
And I have been thinking a bit about how nagura actually works. Maybe someone here might let me know if I am on the right or wrong track or if they have read it somewhere.
I suspect that nagura is in essence a mechanical agent, and I believe that when I use a nagura it is engaging the surface of the main stone in such a way that the hard grit portion of the nagura attacks the softer binder of the main stone and in doing so frees up, in a semi controlled way, the hard cutting girt of the main stone in small quantities. This then allows the grit from main stone to be free to abrade the blade. This grit in the very hard main stone is normally bound up in a very hard binder and is locked up and will not release under the slight pressure normally used or exerted by a razor being honed. A chisel or other heavy tool might, but a razor won’t.
It is not imperative to use a nagura on a soft main stone because those softer stone will readily release their own slurry. It is only when using hard or very hard main stones that you need a slurry or nagura stone like in the nagura progression systems some here on this forum use. The Gifu nagura grit particles might have some sharpening effect but I don’t think that they are hard or sharp enough to remove very much steel on their own, and that during the use with nagura, the grit of the base stone is being released and doing most of the heavy lifting. After all, these big buck finishing stones, like from the better known mines have to be paying for their keep. Any thoughts on this? Alx
　
　
　
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