How To Get The Most Out Of A J-Nat

Colorwise it looks more like a Nakayama http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=124 but with swirls it ddoes resemble the oozuku too.

I get the feeling that all that matters is that both the tomonagura and the awasedo are very fine and that the awasedo is very hard. Certainly, thinking about it, I can't think of a reason why the stones would need to be identical.

I guess you are paying for hard, dense, fine rock, not so much for the properties of the slurry raised either by it or the nagura.

Kentos said:

I guess you are paying for hard, dense, fine rock, not so much for the properties of the slurry raised either by it or the nagura.

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Well, aren't hard, dense and fine the properties?

danjared said:

Well, aren't hard, dense and fine the properties?

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Someone earlier in the thread had the desire that any slurry on their high dollar Jnat came from the high dollar Jnat, and not off of some random reject piece of tomonagura, since the money is all in the awasedo. So my point was your money in is the hardness of the stone, so likely the slurry would end up coming from the tomonagura, or the awasedo, or both...basically it wouldnt matter.

Kentos said:

Here is my no name Japanese hone.

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That - is one gorgeous stone.

Kentos said:

Someone earlier in the thread had the desire that any slurry on their high dollar Jnat came from the high dollar Jnat, and not off of some random reject piece of tomonagura, since the money is all in the awasedo. So my point was your money in is the hardness of the stone, so likely the slurry would end up coming from the tomonagura, or the awasedo, or both...basically it wouldnt matter.

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I certainly wouldn't consider a tomonagura to be a reject. It's smaller for sure, but some consider it the most important piece. I remember reading Jim Rion's blog post about his barber giving him the Nakayama awasedo that he'd been using for decades. The barber apparently was very reluctant about giving him the tomonagura too. I wish I could find the exact blog post. Keep in mind that this was back when most people on the forums were using diamond plates to get slurry. How far we've come...

danjared said:

I certainly wouldn't consider a tomonagura to be a reject. It's smaller for sure, but some consider it the most important piece. I remember reading Jim Rion's blog post about his barber giving him the Nakayama awasedo that he'd been using for decades. The barber apparently was very reluctant about giving him the tomonagura too. I wish I could find the exact blog post. Keep in mind that this was back when most people on the forums were using diamond plates to get slurry. How far we've come...

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Your post also reminds me of how much info resides in peoples' brains and not in a book or on the internet. It is nice to know that here and there people are preserving the experiences of these master tradesmen for the rest of us to use and enjoy.

I guess when in Japan you could go down to the local supply house and maybe hand inspect stones and nagura to buy...not look at pictures on your computer and hope the next purchase is what you need

I think I actually remember reading his experiences on coticule.be where the barber was training him on Japanese Natural stone honing. Ill go back and dig around.

Gamma said:

That - is one gorgeous stone.

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Thanks. Any idea on what it is so I can say," finished on Nakayama so and so", rather than, "finished on my old man's no name Jnat"

I have no idea what mine or stratum it's from. I'm not so very conversant about such matters.

But - If that was my stone, I'd call it Jezebelle.

Still seems to me that if you're using a nagura like a Botan, Mejiro, Koma, etc. where you hone using the nagura slurry, then obviously the honyama hone must be harder than the nagura. On the other hand, if you're using a tomonagura - and here I mean more of a 'slurry stone' - where you're trying to raise a slurry from the honyama itself, then the slurry stone must be harder. What am I missing here?...

Woodash said:

Still seems to me that if you're using a nagura like a Botan, Mejiro, Koma, etc. where you hone using the nagura slurry, then obviously the honyama hone must be harder than the nagura. On the other hand, if you're using a tomonagura - and here I mean more of a 'slurry stone' - where you're trying to raise a slurry from the honyama itself, then the slurry stone must be harder. What am I missing here?...

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I guess that's the crux of the question. Is the use of a tomonagura more for tradition's sake? Could you just use an XXF Dmt to raise the slurry? Or does it not matter where the slurry comes from, as long as your main stone is hard and fine?
For me I have no idea what my stone is, so for me to finish in the traditional manner I may just need to resort to a DMT to get slurry from my stone and call it a day .

^ Boy, fast response...
I'm sure it just depends on what exactly you're trying to do and personal preference.

Lol I'm outside with a cigar, an iPhone and no kids...

I think Woodash is right on- the base stone you're using should be harder than the nagura, (Botan, Mejiro) and if you don't have a tomonagura that's cut from the same stone, the tomonagura should be slightly harder than the large stone. And as long as the tomonagura is approximately the same hardness or harder than the large stone you're using, it shouldn't make any difference if it's from a different mountain or if it's a different color of stone (asagi, kiita, etc).

Using a DMT that's finer than the Coarse (325) plate to raise a slurry can wear it out very quickly- most people that use diamond nagura use an Atoma 1200 or one similar to that. Using a diamond plate as a nagura works more aggresively than a tomonagura- I have heard that it can tear out larger particles from the honyama than you'd get from using a tomonagura to raise the slurry. Diamond nagura slurry should produce faster cutting action from the stone, but the resulting polish on the blade is not the ideal result of what that stone can produce. The polish on the surface of the stone is also important to finishing results, and it makes sense to me that a hard and fine tomonagura will help polish the surface of the JNat before use as well as raising a slurry. IMO, one of the biggest benefits of purchasing a stone from a knowledgeable and honest seller (like Maxim at JNS) is that he can help sort out all the variables involved with JNat honing so that you know you're getting the best possible results from your stone.

Thanks Sam! I'll forget I ever thought of using a DMT on my old man's rock! . Want to take a guess at what stone I have?

Whoa, whoa. I didn't say you shouldn't use a DMT on it, just that you might get slightly different results from a tomonagura. If it's as hard as you say, it might best be used with a diamond nagura so you don't have to spend half an hour raising a slurry on it. I've heard of several people using one of the credit-card sized DMT 1200s to raise a slurry, and those are so cheap that it's not so much of a worry if it wears out fast.

I don't think that I or anybody could give you a meaningful guess as to where your stone comes from just by looking at the surface. Someone who has known and sold thousands of these might be able to know by looking at the "skin" on the back, but even that's not always conclusive! It's a beautiful JNat, not to mention an heirloom, and that's plenty enough for me.

Kentos said:

Thanks for those links Cyi. I contemplated getting a true tomonagura, but have had good results with the untraditional, somewhat sacrilegious use of nano diamond sprays in place of slurry for finishing .

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Evil, I tells ya!

You Jnat guys make my head spin. I've spent half the day watching sword polishing vids, which is why I am reading this... I'll stick to Bnats for now.

SamG said:

Whoa, whoa. I didn't say you shouldn't use a DMT on it, just that you might get slightly different results from a tomonagura. If it's as hard as you say, it might best be used with a diamond nagura so you don't have to spend half an hour raising a slurry on it. I've heard of several people using one of the credit-card sized DMT 1200s to raise a slurry, and those are so cheap that it's not so much of a worry if it wears out fast.

I don't think that I or anybody could give you a meaningful guess as to where your stone comes from just by looking at the surface. Someone who has known and sold thousands of these might be able to know by looking at the "skin" on the back, but even that's not always conclusive! It's a beautiful JNat, not to mention an heirloom, and that's plenty enough for me.

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Got it

Can you guys tell me anything about this combination
ozuku Asagi 5 + finishing hone,plus tommonagura slurry stone
I know Asagi is the color and +5 is the hardness other than that I dont know what ozuku or tommonagura means
Thinking of making this my first finishing stone