First set of hones?

**Kazz** · 10-26-2011, 11:15 AM

I'm interested in learning to hone razors, as well as the occasional kitchen knife since I'm sick of trying to smash through food with a dull slab of metal. I need some advice though.

I don't have a lot of extra money to spend on this at the moment, so even this Norton set http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XK0FMU for $129 seems a little expensive...whippeddog.com has half and quarter stone sets for a bit less, but I really don't know if they would be large enough for my needs or not.

Any ideas? Are there better stones in that price range, or equally good stones for less? Would that set be sufficient for restoration and final honing of straight razors and kitchen knives? Or would one or the other be better off with something else?

**UPD** · 10-26-2011, 11:22 AM

You could use that set up to hone razors just fine. You can shave off of an 8k, I would suggest one day investing in a 12K or higher for finishing, but to get started the Norton 1k, 4k/8k is a nice set-up. One other thing I would HIGHLY recommend is a DMT 325, it's an all-purpose diamond hone. Use it to lap your stones, use it to repair edges, use it to create bevel shapes quickly. It will be your most useful tool. The half nortons would be big enough to work off of. You'd be doing more circles and shorter X-strokes, but its do-able.
Good luck.

**CyiDev** · 10-26-2011, 11:43 AM

Is the DMT 325 necessary since it does come with a lapping stone? Or is it just a suggestion to help with bevel setting? I am looking as well at the Norton looks like a great combo but I would be purchasing a finishing stone. Here is a Naniwa set that I am considering and it has a finishing stone but no lapping stone or 1k:

http://www.straightrazordesigns.com/...00-grit-stones

**UPD** · 10-26-2011, 12:16 PM

I consider the DMT to be necessary. The Norton lapping stones are notorious for their inconsistency. Some are flat, some are not. The DMT is flat, no question. Plus the norton lapping stone is just that, a lapping stone. You can't fix chips with it, and you can't recreate bevels on it.

**Kazz** · 10-26-2011, 03:33 PM

So you wouldn't even bother with the 220 side? What about just a 1k/8k stone and a DMT 325 or something similar in that case, or is 4k very helpful?

**UPD** · 10-27-2011, 09:51 AM

In my opinion, and I know most honers will agree, you need something between 1k and 8k... Heres why:
1K sharpens but leaves a coarse finish and a rough edge under a microscope. 4k (or thereabouts) will continue to refine that coarse edge into something sharper and more even, working out the rough scratches and leaving smaller scratches. 8k will really only polish the edge, it won't really sharpen it any further, just refine, polish, and straighten the "teeth" of the edge. If you go from 1k to 8k, you'll spend a lot of time polishing out 1k scratches, but your edge won't be as sharp as you would really want it. Does that make sense?

**smalltank** · 10-27-2011, 09:55 AM

I was also thinking about this..about 3 months ago it was $110

**Kentos** · 10-27-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by UPD

In my opinion, and I know most honers will agree, you need something between 1k and 8k... Heres why:
1K sharpens but leaves a coarse finish and a rough edge under a microscope. 4k (or thereabouts) will continue to refine that coarse edge into something sharper and more even, working out the rough scratches and leaving smaller scratches. 8k will really only polish the edge, it won't really sharpen it any further, just refine, polish, and straighten the "teeth" of the edge. If you go from 1k to 8k, you'll spend a lot of time polishing out 1k scratches, but your edge won't be as sharp as you would really want it. Does that make sense?

+1

However I am beginning to form the opinion that as you progress to a finer and finer grit, be it stone, paste or spray, the ease of cutting through beard stubble increases, especially on ATG passes for me. I don't know if it's due to a sharpening, refining or polishing action, I just know it cuts easier for me.
To make it even more confusing, depending on the medium used to hone, the resulting edge can irritate the skin of some people, myself included, so a balance between hone type, finishing medium and degree of "sharpness" all influence the quality of a shave.

So...what is the best? A super sharp, super smooth, super refined edge is the best. How to get that edge is the question that differs for everyone. :)

My advice would be to make an informed decision you can afford and start honing. Nortons,Naniwas, Shaptons, cotis, Jnats, they will all give you a shave ready edge:).

**jeness** · 10-28-2011, 08:42 AM

You can't go wrong with the Norton set. It is very nice for knives too, start with the 1k on those. For razors it is one of the easiest to learn, and gives a very nice shave, especially with a pasted strop. Spend the money for it, you will be better off in the long run.

**Kazz** · 10-28-2011, 09:00 AM

I actually got a good deal from MilkyLee on a 3k/8k/12k set of Naniwas that should be here next week.

Is the 3k too fine to start with on knives? What about razors that need more than finishing?

**jeness** · 10-28-2011, 09:28 AM

The 3k is good for razors, with a bit of slurry it has a fair speed. For knives, the 3k is in the finishing category, you will need at least a 1k, or lower.

**Kavik79** · 10-28-2011, 10:52 AM

I'm actually a little surprised no one has mentioned this yet....but you don't necessarily want to be using the same set of stones for knives and razors. You can, but the knives tend to wear the stones much more unevenly, and you'll end up having to lap them every time you want to take a razor to them. This makes a lot more work for you plus will wear the stones a LOT faster.

I was originally looking at the naniwas, but ended up with that exact Norton set because it was cheaper, and by signing up for the amazon credit card I only paid around $70 for the whole set LOL
Overall the norton set has been good, I find it easier working on the wider stones, but UPD had it right, the lapping stone was FAR from flat out of the package

You'll still need something to lap the naniwas with though, I'm definitely keeping an eye out for a good price on a DMT to replace my norton for that

**Kazz** · 10-28-2011, 02:52 PM

I don't intend to do much knife sharpening, but I'd like to do one or two kitchen knives about 6-8 inches long when they need it...I'm not quite sure what the technique for sharpening knives is, but would larger knives still wear it unevenly? I can't really justify buying a whole other expensive set of stones just to use on a knife or two on rare occasions, but since I don't have anything to lap them with yet, I don't want to mess them up either...

**Kavik79** · 10-28-2011, 03:44 PM

It depends on how straight the edge of the knife is, a curved blade will make dips in the stone....but also, knives use a much steeper angle when sharpening and also require more pressure, which cuts into the stone more. And if you're not sure about how to sharpen them in the first place, there's more of a chance of uneven wear.
You don't need a whole other expensive set of water hones for average kitchen knife sharpening, go buy a cheap combo stone for that, or if they're already sharp and just need to maintain an edge try a sharpening rod.

Unfortunately, you're going to need to lap these before use anyway to make sure they're perfectly flat. This can be done using sandpaper on something you know for sure is absolutely 100% flat, like a piece of thick, tempered glass. I personally find it easier with a lapping stone, but that's a good cheap option to start with

**Slartibartfast** · 10-28-2011, 03:55 PM

The naniwas are really soft and easy to gouge with a knife.

**UPD** · 10-28-2011, 04:12 PM

Naniwas are excellent stones, you'll be very pleased. They are also very soft, so be careful using your knives on them. Get a DMT 325 and a 1K stone of your choice to complete your honing set-up. You could set a bevel on a 3k, old timers used to do it on the norton 4ks, but you'll spend a lot of time doing circles to get there. A DMT 325 and a 1k will help you set a good bevel, which is 90% of your honing "work".

**Kazz** · 10-28-2011, 04:40 PM

Wow...well, I don't want to ruin them, so I guess I'd better look at a "cheap combo stone". Any suggestions on exactly what to get? All I need to do with it is keep a knife or two sharp enough to cut vegetables.

As for lapping, he said that the stones were already taken care of for right now, but if I need to do it should I just wait until I can pick up a DMT 325, or would the kind of little hand "sanding sponge" things work at all? I remember them being very flat, and although I'm guessing there is some give to them, I *think* it takes quite a bit of pressure if they really bend at all. I have a couple of different grits somewhere around here, but I haven't used them much so I'm hoping someone else knows if they're any good for this or not, even as a temporary measure.

I'm sure I sound like a clueless beginner, and I am...but I don't intend to put a blade to any of the stones until I know what I'm doing. I learn fast, but I've got some research to do this weekend... ;)

**Blix** · 10-28-2011, 04:45 PM

IMO, a DMT 325 is a must have, the Naniwas requires frequent lapping.

**PapaFish** · 10-28-2011, 09:00 PM

I just found out that the slate tiles you can buy at Home Depot or Lowe's (probably a lot of places) is a good hone (mine is in the 6K range). The slate is CHEAP! I paid $1.60 for mine, after tax. I got one that was very flat to begin with (at least the one corner). I cut out my piece with a half dull hack saw blade (that finished it...), and lapped it flat with sandpaper on a marble tile. A Chinese Natural stone is an inexpensive 12K range finishing stone. You can also go to whippeddog.com and get a Poor Man's Strop Kit. The Chromium Oxide side does a good job of finishing an edge (the Iron Oxide is a bit sharp for my taste).
I haven't worked with the slate long enough to know how much maintenance it requires, but it laps flat on sand paper without a problem, and it creates it's own slurry just using it, so it cuts quickly (at least by my standards).

**UPD** · 10-28-2011, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Kazz

Wow...well, I don't want to ruin them, so I guess I'd better look at a "cheap combo stone". Any suggestions on exactly what to get? All I need to do with it is keep a knife or two sharp enough to cut vegetables.

As for lapping, he said that the stones were already taken care of for right now, but if I need to do it should I just wait until I can pick up a DMT 325, or would the kind of little hand "sanding sponge" things work at all? I remember them being very flat, and although I'm guessing there is some give to them, I *think* it takes quite a bit of pressure if they really bend at all. I have a couple of different grits somewhere around here, but I haven't used them much so I'm hoping someone else knows if they're any good for this or not, even as a temporary measure.

I'm sure I sound like a clueless beginner, and I am...but I don't intend to put a blade to any of the stones until I know what I'm doing. I learn fast, but I've got some research to do this weekend... ;)

To lap you need something flat and you'll be using some pressure, so I am going to say nay on the sponge-thingy. DMT 325's can be had for about $50 thereabouts, it will be the most utilitarian $50 you spend on your set-up.
To sharpen knives, I would suggest a spyderco sharpmaker, it's a ceramic rod system, idoit proof and it really works for approx $50.

Don't be afraid to put steel to stone, that is the only way you'll learn to hone... Get yourself a couple cheap razors to practice with first, or contact Larry at whippeddog and take advantage of his free honing lessons.