Making a hone

[Kavik79]

man, that was a long thread to read through....but lots of interesting things here
I'll be honest, half of it it above my head, but two thoughts come to mind while reading

re: making hones with powdered abrasives and a bonding agent-
Rather than mixing into a clay type resin and hoping for even distribution of the abrasive, has anyone tried making a mold filled with the powder and using a vacuum assisted resin infusion method to pull a liquid resin through it? I don't know if it could be done without sucking out a powder this fine, I'm just curious if it could work using a realllly fine filter material covering the 'suction end'.
I'd imagine it would make for a rather high abrasive to resin ratio which, if I'm reading this stuff right, would make for a rather fast cutting stone...maybe too fast for a finishing stone

re: found materials-
The talk about using old slate chalk boards made me wonder...has anyone tried getting their hands on an old slate pool table top? A good one should be made of a very hard, extremely flat slate, about an inch thick. I hear the good ones are often Italian slate, don't know how true, or if that means anything good or bad to anyone here?
Wouldn't be easy, but if you can find someone with a broken slab that can't be repaired, an average 8' table with a 3 piece slab...each piece would be approximately 51" x 31". That's 60 potential 8x3 hones (minus whatever is lost where the slab was broken) out of just a third of one table

Those are my thoughts....other than that, I'm loving just looking at some of the rocks you guys are coming up with. Keep up the good work!

[xMackx]

Lapped it some more and polished the stone, doesn't that look an awful lot like a j-nat. Wanted to show it dry and wet, still working on polishing the surface but I have it polished enough it will get finer with use. With slurry it cuts around the 8k level, and it's quite hard finishing with just water at least 10k plus level. Will do more testing tonight.

[Pkrankow]

That looks exactly the same coloration as the siltstone I found in Lake Erie. I haven't messed with it much in a while.

Phil

[xMackx]

That looks exactly the same coloration as the siltstone I found in Lake Erie. I haven't messed with it much in a while.

Phil

I wouldn't doubt it, I found mine on Lake Michigan. The glaciers that carved the great lakes deposited stone all the way from Canada.

[xMackx]

man, that was a long thread to read through....but lots of interesting things here
I'll be honest, half of it it above my head, but two thoughts come to mind while reading

re: making hones with powdered abrasives and a bonding agent-
Rather than mixing into a clay type resin and hoping for even distribution of the abrasive, has anyone tried making a mold filled with the powder and using a vacuum assisted resin infusion method to pull a liquid resin through it? I don't know if it could be done without sucking out a powder this fine, I'm just curious if it could work using a realllly fine filter material covering the 'suction end'.
I'd imagine it would make for a rather high abrasive to resin ratio which, if I'm reading this stuff right, would make for a rather fast cutting stone...maybe too fast for a finishing stone

re: found materials-
The talk about using old slate chalk boards made me wonder...has anyone tried getting their hands on an old slate pool table top? A good one should be made of a very hard, extremely flat slate, about an inch thick. I hear the good ones are often Italian slate, don't know how true, or if that means anything good or bad to anyone here?
Wouldn't be easy, but if you can find someone with a broken slab that can't be repaired, an average 8' table with a 3 piece slab...each piece would be approximately 51" x 31". That's 60 potential 8x3 hones (minus whatever is lost where the slab was broken) out of just a third of one table

Those are my thoughts....other than that, I'm loving just looking at some of the rocks you guys are coming up with. Keep up the good work!

Yeah, that's the problem with us average guys trying to make synthetics... need specialized tools. Manufacturers of synthetic whetstones actually use pressurized molds and sinter the abrasive to near melting temperatures fusing the particles together so a vacuum would probably do the opposite and pull the particles apart (just a guess). The slate tables would be interesting if you find any, slate is a very broad term so you never know what you'll get. Actually in the old days the term whetslate was used for any type of stone that would make quality whetstone material.

[Kavik79]

actually, it doesn't require much for specialized tools...I've seen videos of people using this method to infuse carbon fiber sheets with resin at home using plastic bags and just about anything that can pull a vacuum (yes, even an actual vacuum LOL). Tons of write up out there on making a vacuum pump from air conditioner and refrigerator compressors
The only place I'm worried about it pulling anything apart would be right at the suction hole in the mold. If that holds up with a filter in place, then you would actually end up pressurizing the whole thing as it tries to suck more air out of the container, when there's no air left it starts pulling in on the sides of the mold (put a sandwich in a zip lock bag and use a straw to suck the air out, suck hard enough and the sandwich gets crushed, right?).

Again, no personal experience here, just what I've read for other projects I've wanted to try....but my thinking is:
-a hole in the bottom of a pan for the resin feed, with a check valve
-pack the abrasive into the pan
-lay a flat filter material over top of the abrasive
-bag the whole unit and apply vacuum from the top to pull the liquid up through the abrasive, with the air rising to the surface as it goes, and a valve in the suction line to seal it off once it's pulled through

depending on the epoxy/resin, you may be able to leave it under pressure while it cures. Wouldn't be thousands of pounds of pressure, but maybe 120psi or so might be better than just sitting at atmospheric pressure while it cures.


And, as a bonus, once you have a vacuum bagging set up in place, you've got everything you need to make your own micarta scales with whatever materials you want to layer

[Pkrankow]

Want to do it you need
plastic sheeting
release material
breather material
a mold
mold release
sealant
vacuum pump

Oh look just under $300
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=14779&engine=adwords!6456&keyword= product_ad_3773&type=pla

I am sure you can do much better if you work at it and scrounge. The release material is a special fabric that allows epoxy and air to pass, The breather I could swear is polyester batting. I have assisted in using a similar system for a fiberglass repair. It is really easy, just lay it up properly and hit the switch, check for leaks, walk away.

just for reference atmospheric pressure is about 14.9psi

Phil

[Kavik79]

quite a bit under $300, but still, the pump is the largest expense there. If you made one out of recycled materials it would be a helluva lot cheaper
edit: scratch that statement above. I read closer, that kit uses a vacuum generator that has to be hooked up to a shop air compressor. But still, that piece bought separately is $120

But, being that you have some experience, do you have any opinion on whether or not a powdered material could remain undisturbed during the process? Assuming that the breather materials 'filter size' is smaller than the particles of the abrasive?

And, I'm not sure I understand the reason you're pointing out atmospheric pressure? I'm not arguing it, I'm just feel like maybe I'm missing why it's relevant if the pressure in this process is based on the power of the pump and will far surpass atmospheric pressure

[Pkrankow]

depending on the epoxy/resin, you may be able to leave it under pressure while it cures. Wouldn't be thousands of pounds of pressure, but maybe 120psi or so might be better than just sitting at atmospheric pressure while it cures.

So you propose using a bladder or press to apply pressure? I thought you were talking about vacuum using just atmospheric pressure (hence 14.9psi reference)

Less expensive pumps that might work are easy to find.

For very small items this might be suitable.
http://www.harborfreight.com/mityvac...ump-39522.html
if you have an adequate compressor then
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-vac...ors-96677.html

I have made a venturi nozzle out of a small T, compressor fitting and a barb, 1/4 inch for everything IIRC. It drew water uphill more than 10 ft of rise quite quickly, and sprayed the water everywhere as desired.

An electric vacuum pump is what was used when I assisted. A couple yards of the materials is not very expensive. Yes, you could do micarta scales and much much more quite easily with the kit also.

I don't think it was mentioned in the links, but a collection jar in case of excess epoxy pulling through will save the pump, but you may loose the bag fitting and hose.

Phil

[Kavik79]

well, this is where I may be getting confused LOL
I think what I was thinking was that an electric pump that could pressurize something to, say 100 psi, could also depressurize something by the same amount, in a sealed system, given enough time. This may not be the case at all? I don't know LOL

Either way though, even if it doesn't cause enough pressure to have that as a benefit, it'll still be enough to draw all the air out and ensure you don't find a dry patch when you lap your "stone"

[Pkrankow]

Don't underestimate the power of vacuum. 14psi spread across an 8x3 surface (24 square inches) is 336 pounds! Adds up rather quickly doesn't it?

I would mix the abrasive with the resin, then put it under vacuum. The excess epoxy would get pushed out through the mold release fabric and absorbed by the breather material.

Phil

[xMackx]

Found a very interesting read on coticule type stones in the U.S.! Here is the link http://rruff.geo.arizona.edu/doclib/cm/vol39/CM39_1021.pdf

[PapaFish]

Mack, your siltstone looks great! I would like to hear what you think of it after using it a while.
As for slate pool tables, watch Craigslist. I have seen a few come up for free (using the keyword "slate"). Some with broken slate, some with other broken components, all of them with terribly damaged felt :). I have never gone and gotten one because they are usually a couple hundred miles away, and a lot heavier than I can manage alone.

[32t]

It actually looks very similar to the piece of Lizard Stone that Jeff had sent me. I found it to be a stone that finished maybe in a 6K range (below where I need to shave). I have used it quite a bit, with different slurries and such. It made a good stone for jumping to a finishing stone. How big is your piece? I am assuming that is a C12K slurry stone (not the full stone) sitting next to it.

The Jasper is 3"x4"x 2 1/4". I would agree with your 6K estimate although I need to use it more to be sure. I should lap it better before I try it again. The C12K added something and even though it didn't pass hanging hair test #23 I found it to be very usable. I stropped with Crox, Fire hose, and leather before using.

My mind wanders to much sometimes for long term scientific experiments. Here is my latest a Ink stone or Suzuri. I have been getting interested in pens and ink lately and found this this last weekend. I have never used an ink stone but as I held it in my hand I thought mmmm this is made of slate. I could lap the bottom and make a hone! As you can see I left a few low spots near the edges but I don't like getting to involved until I know the potential. It got a better edge than the Lizard skin but less than a C12K. If I don't get distracted soon I will lap and test it better.

I am envisioning something good for a camper. Multiple use. Touch up your razor in the morning and practice your Calligraphy in the afternoon.

Tim

[Puerco]

That looks an awful lot like a C12K, CNAT or PHUG and in fact I strongly suspect it's the same stone. Not only that but in a lot of home improvement stores or other places they sell tiles they sell tiles called "Chinese blue stone", not only tiles but also sinks, benches, flowerpots etc. are made of this Chinese blue stone.
I strongly suspect these are all the same stones sold to us as honing stones only a big tile is cheaper than a small hone and this tiles come already lapped and polished (also brushed, hammered, rough or figured ).
Imagine the look on the wife's face when you ask "honey could you move over, I need to hone my razor on that bench you're sitting on"... I think SWMBO would kill me if I started making slurry on her garden bench like that...
Anyway I think this could provide a cheap way to obtain a huge razor hone on the cheap or to cut up in smaller pieces, I want to try me one but I don't have a car at the moment and this buggers are a bit on the heavy side to carry with me on the bus.

[xMackx]

That looks an awful lot like a C12K, CNAT or PHUG and in fact I strongly suspect it's the same stone. Not only that but in a lot of home improvement stores or other places they sell tiles they sell tiles called "Chinese blue stone", not only tiles but also sinks, benches, flowerpots etc. are made of this Chinese blue stone.
I strongly suspect these are all the same stones sold to us as honing stones only a big tile is cheaper than a small hone and this tiles come already lapped and polished (also brushed, hammered, rough or figured ).
Imagine the look on the wife's face when you ask "honey could you move over, I need to hone my razor on that bench you're sitting on"... I think SWMBO would kill me if I started making slurry on her garden bench like that...
Anyway I think this could provide a cheap way to obtain a huge razor hone on the cheap or to cut up in smaller pieces, I want to try me one but I don't have a car at the moment and this buggers are a bit on the heavy side to carry with me on the bus.

I have suspected that for some time myself, because every once in a while you will see guys even here in Michigan selling c-nats in large quantities on Ebay. The quality of stone is completely different from each vender. Remember the Guangxi province is massive and their are alot of quarries. If you find some stone that works let us know!

[xMackx]

Mack, your siltstone looks great! I would like to hear what you think of it after using it a while.
As for slate pool tables, watch Craigslist. I have seen a few come up for free (using the keyword "slate"). Some with broken slate, some with other broken components, all of them with terribly damaged felt :). I have never gone and gotten one because they are usually a couple hundred miles away, and a lot heavier than I can manage alone.

Now that i have had the chance to hone on it a bunch of times. My Buttersville silkstone finishes best on just water, it rivals the best of my finishers and very skin friendly. Some of my bought and best finishers require a few laps on cotton to tame down the unskinfriendly keeness but this stone straight to red latigo. Passes HHT-5. The cool thing is it was the one stone that my dad found that looked good when I was rock hunting. I have to find more so I can see if you guys like it.

[32t]

Some of my bought and best finishers require a few laps on cotton to tame down the unskinfriendly keeness but this stone straight to red latigo. Passes HHT-5. The cool thing is it was the one stone that my dad found that looked good when I was rock hunting. I have to find more so I can see if you guys like it.

How has the BLEED strop worked out? Hint Hint!

[xMackx]

Something I have noticed or learned about density and particle/abrasive size. That the density of a stone seems to play a large role in whetstone cutting/finishing ability. If a stone is soft, the particle/abrasive size dictates it's finishing qualities. With much harder stones even with a larger particle/abrasive size, they can have higher finishing qualities. Lets say a soft stone with a abrasive particle size of 1 micron that is soft enough to consistently release abrasive particles will produce an edge consistent with that 1 micron. Now with a much harder stone (more difficult to slurry), lets say with a particle abrasive size of 5 micron can produce an edge much finer with only water. Because the surface of a much harder stone has only a fraction of the 5 micron particles exposed and doesn't release them easily. This is why a soft 1 micron stone and a much harder 5 micron stone can produce similar edges. So density actually is one of the largest factors to determine a whetstones capabilities along side particle/abrasive size.

[paco664]

Lapped it some more and polished the stone, doesn't that look an awful lot like a j-nat. Wanted to show it dry and wet, still working on polishing the surface but I have it polished enough it will get finer with use. With slurry it cuts around the 8k level, and it's quite hard finishing with just water at least 10k plus level. Will do more testing tonight.

hey mack..... i would LOVE a piece of this if you ever find anymore.....