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Making a hone

Gamma, that's beautiful! Understanding more is better and that will make for interesting study!

I've been able to ascertain that the garnet sources nearby were primarily volcanic. And one of my favorite camping areas has some of that as an overlay. Most of that has eroded and whatever garnets were there have redeposited elsewhere most likely.

Incidentally, I'm currently testing an unusual native stone which is showing itself to have useful qualities as a finisher, not to mention being visually appealing. Need to get more, get it slabbed, and send it out to a few people for comparison with other rocks. Looking at the razor edge under the microscope it looks to be maybe twice as fine as a translucent arkie or similar, but there is something odd going on at the very limit of the edge. Needs more study. Tested the practical virtues of one razor sharpened on it about half an hour ago. That razor wasn't bad before, but is noticeably improved.
 
Incidentally, I'm currently testing an unusual native stone which is showing itself to have useful qualities as a finisher, not to mention being visually appealing. Need to get more, get it slabbed, and send it out to a few people for comparison with other rocks.

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! :001_smile

In all seriousness, it is really cool that you may have found something new to play around with. Or should I say something really really old? :001_tt2:
 
Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! :001_smile

In all seriousness, it is really cool that you may have found something new to play around with. Or should I say something really really old? :001_tt2:

Wish granted just as soon as I can lay my hands on more! This one can make a slurry and that is beyond my experience. Need some open minded, analytical, coticule users to squeeze out the possibilities.

Here's what I am seeing that is kind of freaky.

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approx 400x

Notice that the scratches fade at the very edge. That razor just got a couple hundred laps on a hard arkie followed by about a hundred on this experimental one. AT the very edge it looks as smooth and uniform as if it had gone thru a full synthetic progression. What you don't see is that as you move further away from the edge it is all a mass of scratches finer than those left by the arkie. I've stropped nothing.

I'll be shaving with that soon... Unstropped.

Update: I shaved with it unstropped and..... the results would be categorized as "extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary proof". Definitely, some pieces are going out as soon as I can get them.
 
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I have noticed the same type of thing when following my Chinese Natural stone with my Spyderco Ultra Fine. There are deeper scratches in the center of the bevel, but the very edge and the back of the bevel get super polished. This is noticable without magnification on my razor.

Reserve the right to stop, clean the blade, strop, and continue! When I first started, I used the Ultra Fine followed by a light stropping on news print... it did work, but it burned like the dickens! I have also shaved off a razor finished on 0.09 micron without stropping on leather. It was definitely sharp enough, but not smooth like it should have been. The following shave, I stropped, and what a difference!
 
Gamma, that's beautiful! Understanding more is better and that will make for interesting study!

If you can read French;
Ardoise et Cticule en terre de Salm - is a book with a ton of info. I've yet to procure a copy but I am actively engaged in that process. I believe a proformer invoice is being mailed to me and at that point I will send funds, and so on.
At any rate - Coticules are found in numerous places, as are Garnets - the perfect combination of perfect sized Garnets and a useable binder (for honing) are not so common however. That specific balance seems to be unique to the deposits at Ardennes. But who knows..
I believe the deposits at Ardennes are metamorphic... but I could be wrong. I am not certain about the deposits here in New England either...but I seem to remember that there was a difference between the two... so far as their 'creation' is concerned. What I do remember reading is that the Coticules found in New England were reported to have significantly larger Garnet xls in them, rendering them useless for our honing needs.
Alternative finisher - try Jasper... a slab that's free of inclusions and polished/chamfered/etc is another old-time choice that seems to be a decent option. I believe there is quite a lot of Jasper out by you.. slabs should be fairly easy to come by. It's my understanding that the more boring-looking pieces are the best for sharpening...but that is something I've read - I have no first hand experience.
 
Good information Woodash! Thanks for adding to my little hone making experience. I rather enjoy a good conversation between open spirited intelligent creatures such as you guys here. I am still working on synthetic whetstones and the recipes. I poured a couple more hones and will take pics soon as they cure/cook.

I found this information on a description of a ceramic hone made for space age quality and found it informative:

Spaceage ceramic is manufactured by pressing alumina oxide at 15,000#PSI and scinted at 3,000F. Ceramic products can withstand temperatures of 3,000F, have a compression of 300,000#PSI and a hardness of 9.5

And this is space age ceramic but the same process. Just with more pressure and higher temperatures. My dad gave me the idea of using his 10 ton jack and using one of our old dump trucks to apply the tons of pressure. And When I plan on building a knife forge I will also build a small kiln. When I have the cash of course. As for now I will keep experimenting. And hope I can build a makeshift rock saw in the near future soon.

I molded a polishing stone that is very ceramic like. I'll post the pics as soon as It's done cooking/curing. Keep up the good work fellas! :)

"Space Age Ceramics", would that be the non-ablative tiles that are used on the belly of the Space Shuttle? They go through extreme pressure and heat during re-entry (at least they did when the Shuttle was still flying). Also, are they saying they are sintred under pressure? If so, what would be able to be used to create such pressure and that would survive the heat? It's interesting that Aluminum Oxide has a hardness of 9.0, but once sintered in that means, they are at 9.5. I guess it's possible that it's pressure, then heat, since that's the way Kyocera makes their ceramic knives (I think they are using some ridiculous amount of pressure... I think they just quoted a tonnage, not a PSI...)
 
Reserve the right to stop, clean the blade, strop, and continue!

Wasn't necessary. That's all I will say. And some crazy guy making a claim on the net (me) is proof of nothing. If I am fortunate today, there will be samples to send out this week. If not? Well, you have to hoof it into the deposit areas and that takes longer. I smell a commercial possibility, so please pardon me for being a little secretive. The crazy old prospector light in my head is flashing madly.
 
Sounds very intresting, it's been a long time since I played with with scopes/metal edge testing. Pretty sure I have some of the books and will have to dig them out. I remember a section on blade edges. Pictures showing different looks with different sharpening methods effect. This was for high tolerance metal work but a lot of it relates. I know there is topics very similiar to what your showing about how edge looks with explanations etc. A few times know that I am suprised at how many times everything relates. I hope this contunes to work out for you. Be nice to see some more home options. Also people who make primitive arrowheads (knapping) but there is a other source of rock cutters and slab makers. It's common for some suppliers or individuals to have machinery to cut an slab for those looking for a source to have something cut. They can be a very helpful bunch. The harbor and freight water tile saw is used too. Theres is some pretty descriptive info About how to do it. If anyone can't find, let me know and I'll look it up, I have it saved somewhere, plus have links etc to people that do it or sell blades. I can't wait to see some more pics. If you need another tester I'd be glad to be one as well.
 
Sounds very intresting, it's been a long time since I played with with scopes/metal edge testing. Pretty sure I have some of the books and will have to dig them out. I remember a section on blade edges. Pictures showing different looks with different sharpening methods effect. This was for high tolerance metal work but a lot of it relates. I know there is topics very similiar to what your showing about how edge looks with explanations etc. A few times know that I am suprised at how many times everything relates. I hope this contunes to work out for you. Be nice to see some more home options. Also people who make primitive arrowheads (knapping) but there is a other source of rock cutters and slab makers. It's common for some suppliers or individuals to have machinery to cut an slab for those looking for a source to have something cut. They can be a very helpful bunch. The harbor and freight water tile saw is used too. Theres is some pretty descriptive info About how to do it. If anyone can't find, let me know and I'll look it up, I have it saved somewhere, plus have links etc to people that do it or sell blades. I can't wait to see some more pics. If you need another tester I'd be glad to be one as well.

Heeyyy, any info you have is more than I got for this sort of thing. See my response for Gamma below. It relates.

I've never been able to tell much about an edge magnified like this - my first thought is that the edge seems rounded somewhat. Not that that is a bad thing, but that is how it looks to me.

Yes. It looks slightly convex to me as well. That's the 2nd time too. I took extra pains to run the razor a while on the big arkie to make sure it was a mass of scratches all the way to the edge. WIthout serious stropping after the arkie it would have been a little unpleasant to shave with... that much I know having mixed up razors and shaved with 2 unstropped! Finished half the shave and put the razor down to get the other, finished the shave and then went back to check the blades. DOH!

What I have noted is that this stone seems to throw off some microscopic particulates in very small quantities. My suspicion is that they are providing the polishing effect. Oddly, it seems the opposite of a coticule. Soft material embedded in a harder matrix. So hard to say with certainty tho.

The good news is it's show & tell time... the bad news follows immediately after.

The upper left 2 are the ones that have me in a tizzy. The others aren't tested yet, but look interesting.

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The bad news is that I can't identify the 2 in question except to say they are some kind of silicified somethingorother. They may be a type of jasper. Much to my sadness, those are apparently the only 2 slabbed pieces which were on the premises. Worse, the proprietor wasn't sure where he got them or where they came from. They may be from a vein related to the greenish ones in the center. I'll need to hoof out to where I believe they come from and check it out.

The others are just experimental. The reds are jasper with psilomelane I expect. They look good even if they are useless otherwise.

Unfortunately, I read no French. Too bad it isn't in Spanish. That I can mostly understand. And yes on the jasper. All the rocks shown are related in some way I suspect. There's buttloads of it out here in many different varieties. That's what I suspect the mystery stones are. The question becomes: "what is the point of origin?"
 
Very nice work Nobody (don't know your name). Those cuts look just beautiful to me. Maybe someday after we have honed in our whetstone making capabilities we can trade one for another. What sucks for me is that I live in the lower peninsula of Michigan so there are only a few good places to hunt for rocks, but man the upper peninsula is just loaded with every kind a rock hound could dream of (the glaciers deposited rock here from the whole continent). I really like the way that top right one looks with the green striping. I just bought a bunch of tools for designing razor backs so I have to post pone getting a diamond saw. Thinking since tomorrow is Sunday I may just drive out to a beach I know of that is covered in stone deposits just to take a gander and collect a couple before winter covers them.

I'm really excited to have some like minded people working toward to making some very cool tool equipment.
 
Very nice work Nobody (don't know your name). Those cuts look just beautiful to me. Maybe someday after we have honed in our whetstone making capabilities we can trade one for another. What sucks for me is that I live in the lower peninsula of Michigan so there are only a few good places to hunt for rocks, but man the upper peninsula is just loaded with every kind a rock hound could dream of (the glaciers deposited rock here from the whole continent). I really like the way that top right one looks with the green striping. I just bought a bunch of tools for designing razor backs so I have to post pone getting a diamond saw. Thinking since tomorrow is Sunday I may just drive out to a beach I know of that is covered in stone deposits just to take a gander and collect a couple before winter covers them.

I'm really excited to have some like minded people working toward to making some very cool tool equipment.

Name's Jeff actually, but you can call me anything but late for supper. Y'know, the combo of razors, honing, and rockhounding are just short beer, guns, and women to being perfect! lol

I should end up with an excess of stones, so you can expect some to come your way once I put a little study into them.

It would be nice to think this is all "new" information but, as Gamma pointed out, it's just retracing the steps of those who were here before us and relearning what they knew about stones.

Oh, the upper right stone is very translucent. Same goes for the mystery stones. They have translucent areas. I'll sharpen a few more razors with the larger and send it off to either you or Papafish (he was the first to make a request, but you started the thread so I feel obligated to defer to you). I swear I have seen that stone before, but cannot remember where. I'm afraid that's the best I can do in the short term. The lapidary guy just clammed right up on me today. Didn't know jack, but seemed pretty talkative yesterday. Rockhounds can be as bad as gold bugs sometimes.
 
They look like Jasper... maybe the lower of the two green ones in the top left could be a moss agate.. chalcedony type stone.
Like you said - they're all related.
People in the knife forums speak well of using Jasper for finishing the edge on utility knives... I'd guess the right stone could prove to be a winner for straights too.
Watch the inclusions... I'd suspect many to be full of toxic veins.
Not so long ago was shopping around for a slab of Jasper to try out... my interest had faded but this thread revived it a bit.
 
They look like Jasper... maybe the lower of the two green ones in the top left could be a moss agate.. chalcedony type stone.
Like you said - they're all related.
People in the knife forums speak well of using Jasper for finishing the edge on utility knives... I'd guess the right stone could prove to be a winner for straights too.
Watch the inclusions... I'd suspect many to be full of toxic veins.
Not so long ago was shopping around for a slab of Jasper to try out... my interest had faded but this thread revived it a bit.

The 2 on the upper left are actually the same stone. The lower one changed color during honing and became lighter. It's represented as "lizard stone", but then again so are the middle 2. If they are the same stone, then there is a variation in silicification for sure! Overall, the stone is quite uniform on all but the red/black banded one. It actually has some veins of chatoyant cats eye. Absolutely stunning. The pic does no justice. Let me test a bit and so long as samples work out, I will try to get some cut for those who have interest. The rock you see, cabbed up, would run in the hundreds of bucks if not a grand or more. Hard to estimate really. Sells by the pound as you see it or free if you go get it.
 
From all the research I have done, ceramic seems to be a pretty loose term. It can be made from only clay, molten glass, aluminum oxide. It seems to be more of a noun for reference of a descriptive quality. They have ceramic and porcelain tile at lowes and home depot, but they are glazed. I think I am going to buy 1 and have them cut it there "for free". Take it home and sand off the glaze.

Actually I just found out they do have unglazed ceramic tile at home depot. Looks like I have a new project this week. lol

Unglazed? I don't know that I have ever seen ceramic unglazed (except the backs of the tiles...). Good luck lapping it (if it needs it). Those tiles are "flat" but not FLAT. Sift through and try to find one that is as flat as possible. If it's as hard to lap as my Spyderco Ultra Fine, you will never finish!
On a related note, I stopped by Home Depot today and picked up a slate tile. I sifted through a large stack of tiles looking for a thick tile that was very flat. For all of $1.60 (after tax) I walked out with a stone that fit the bill, and I was pleasantly surprised that I could see tiny little crystals reflecting in the sun. I used a hack saw (sold my tile saw to a friend that was doing some tiling... may have to borrow it back...) to cut a 6 1/2" x 3 1/2" piece where it was flattest, sanded it a bit to remove trouble areas, and tried a couple razors on it (junkers, but it would give an idea of what it was capable of). First thing I will say is that the slate is SOFT! It was a very light colored tile, and it produces a brown slurry when using a razor on it. If I don't use enough water, it gets really really thick! It seems to cut really fast (but all the stones I have hand have been really slow, so take that with a grain of salt) and leave a nice edge. The one junker had last tested a DMT 1.2K and a little Arkansas stone in the 800 grit range, and the slate made short work of removing the scratches. I seem to remember Larry saying he had a "mud stone" that cut as fast as a 1K, but left an edge more like a 4K... This reminds me of that, only leaving an edge that looks more like an 8K! I took one of my razors that doesn't get a lot of love, and ran it over the slate good on both sides. I did "dilutions" running water more and more frequently, and finished with a with water running. It gives an edge that will pass HHT1 (Singing violin). I am excited, since I have been looking for a good mid-range hone, and for the price, WOW, you can't beat $1.60 for a good, cheap mid-range hone. I want to try shaving with that razor tomorrow, and I will report back how things go. I don't plan on using it as a finisher, but as a stepping stone (ha! pun!) on the way to a finishing stone. I wonder how it would do setting a bevel... I am a fairly patient man...
If this turns out well, I will have to try cutting a 12"x3" piece so I can lap it and really go to town! I would send samples out, but the tile was so inexpensive that shipping on each chunk would cost more than the tile did to begin with! I suggest others try it too and see what they think. Maybe we can find a correlation, color -vs- speed and/or finishing properties.
 
When I get down by my dad's house I will get the one book that should have some good info on edges. I'll see if any of the books made it to my house on Monday. I saw it the last time I was in the basement looking for my old baseball mitts for my son. Any of the lapidary sites or knap sites have experts who are excellent at identifying stones. Also there is a US mineral deposit map that shows deposits of various minerals throughout the country. Obviously we are talking minerals and you live in close proximity to some good deposits. That map may expidite your search or at least give you new insight. I have played around with it since I knap. If you go out and find any decent larger sizes of flint or chert etc I'd be glad to take it off your hands. I don't think I have to much from AZ. That stuff you have knapps well. Also asking for locations of the bigger mineral deposits on the knapping sites might get you pointed in a good direction too. In some areas there are actually old quarries both modern and from the native Americans as well you can go to and hunt for it. Some are very large. It's funny about a month or two , I was looking at my pile of flint,cert etc from across the country and going somewhere there has to be decent mineral deposits that would work for honing. I'm sorry I'm not more exact on some of this for you. I was big into knapping a few years ago, I love the traditional Archery etc and I hurt my spine three years ago. Breaking up the stuff didn't go over well with my spine afterwards and it's been a while for my brain to be thinking knapping etc, so I'm a little fuzzy on some of the stuff. This week I'll go back through my stuff and get more detailed info for you.
 
xMackx
I know that some chefs talk about refreshing their knife blades on the back unglazed rim of a porcelain plate. One of the main ingredients of porcelain is kaolin, and if you could find powdered kaoling it could maybe be a component in your mixture. Alx
 
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