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Making a hone

There are all sorts of places that have good rock beds for making hones. When you read about the only rock quarry's still around are from Belgium and china, they're talking about massive rock beds worthy of quarrying for business on a large scale. You can find rocks all over the place that can make good hones. IF you know what to look for. I would love to get some rock cutting equipment someday as I am a rock hound myself. There is even a place in the upper peninsula of Michigan here called "Razor Hone Rock". Good natural stones are usually made from types of sedimentary rock because of the quartz and silica content.
 
I'm sure you are right. There's bound to be lots-o-stuff out there. Prospectors don't go looking for whetstones, they go looking for gold and what have you. There comes that little factor, as you mention, "If you know what to look for.". Happily, things have cooled off here and we are coming into the hiking/camping/rockhounding season in the low desert areas. And by golly, I remembered right about the garnets. They are mined up on the Navajo Reservation. Fairly large gem quality too. Where there be big'uns, there be small'uns! Guess I will have to take a look at the erosion areas and see if there are any sedimentary beds below the gem areas. The coticule fans have me pretty intrigued. One could just buy a Belgian rock, but where's the fun in that?
 
Here is a guy that cut his own Razor whetstone from a slab of rock he procured where he lives. I would love to have the tools to do this. http://lumberjocks.com/Daren/blog/2835

Not as inaccessible as one would think for very basic versions of the high dollar tools:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_320300-4692...1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=wet+saw&facetInfo=

I've cut many tile for projects with something similar. Sadly, someone liked it more than I did. That which cuts porcelain tile will surely cut rock. They use diamond blades after all. Happily, I know guys with big rock saws, so don't need one. The diamond blade on the grinder is pretty nifty tho. Still, not uncommon.

Interesting to note the guy used slate.
 
Slate is a common material for medium-fine-very fine hones. Welsh slate hones and others, I think the Cnat hone is a slate (I have one, don't care for it, love my coticules, small ones are rather inexpensive) Arkansas novaculite is a metamorphic stone, so sedimentary is not a requirement.

If you need to cut up a stone, why spend $100 on something you are going to use once, rent a big one at the rental place for $40 (OR spot the guy $10 or so to use it on site)

Phil
 
Now you guys have me wanting to go looking for sedimentary rock... A hone that you just FIND on the ground (or by digging a bit) would be pretty awesome. I have found some geodes and the like, but never really considered looking for sedimentary rocks... I suppose if you spent some time looking, it wouldn't take too long to figure out what you were looking for.
 
Slate is a common material for medium-fine-very fine hones. Welsh slate hones and others, I think the Cnat hone is a slate (I have one, don't care for it, love my coticules, small ones are rather inexpensive) Arkansas novaculite is a metamorphic stone, so sedimentary is not a requirement.

If you need to cut up a stone, why spend $100 on something you are going to use once, rent a big one at the rental place for $40 (OR spot the guy $10 or so to use it on site)

Phil

Slate is metamorphosed shale, novaculite metamorphosed chert, so you are spot on. A hone needn't be sedimentary. It would be real funny to find out the local Home Depot has candidates for the task being sold to tile your home. And yeah, unless one wants to do lots of cutting, it makes good sense to throw a few bucks at someone with a rock saw in exchange for some trimming.
 
Another consideration is ceramic can be well suited. I have a pipe plug, about 5 inches across, that is black hard ceramic. It is not what I call "idea" as a hone, and would not use it on my razor (it is not as fine as I like) but it has sharpened knives for decades, and is well suited for touching up a sharp, but less than keen, knife. I have considered recently having it sawn into bars so I can lap the smaller pieces, but after lapping and testing as a razor hone I changed my mind.

My father in law, a plumber, laughs at me about using a sewer part as a hone.

Phil
 
That's the spirit guys... I have never had such good positive feedback from a diy thread. I may just add some of you to my friends list here lol. But all kidding aside that is a good idea looking for someone with a rock saw to cut up some stones. My grandma used to be a serious rock hound and had tools, fossils, and gems but when she died my cousin that got the house threw everything away :(

I still would love to have a small rock saw, maybe in the future. I wonder if any hardware stores have any slate around here. Because I know people have made there own bench hones out of granite and marble tile from home depot (for using chromium oxide on).

On another note about rock cutting. I found this website on how to convert any circular saw into a rock saw. http://www.ehow.com/how_7992642_build-rock-cutting-saw.html
 
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If you are going to convert your circular saw to a rock saw (change the blade) be sure to keep things wet. Those blades wear out when they get hot. I have seen it done by professionals for cutting curves instead of straight lines. When I saw them do it, one guy cut backward very slowly, raising the blade and lowering it as he went along. A second guy was standing right there continually pouring water on the blade with a watering can with a modified tip for slower, more directed flow. The reason for back cutting was to keep the cutting edge of the blade wet as it cut. Both were wearing respirators (but nobody else in the shop at the time was). There was no dust this way, but a big muddy mess when everything was done (and they were cutting over a big garbage can).

Also, in reply to ceramic hones... I met a guy that is an electrician. He said old light bulbs (I don't remember which kind) have a ceramic rod in them for one reason or another. When he has to replace the bulbs for people, he recovers the ceramic rod, and sells it as a knife sharpening rod. I didn't by one for two reasons, first, he didn't have any, second, I couldn't imagine trying to hone a razor on a round rod. Maybe I should get a couple and make a knife sharpening rig out of them.
 
From all the research I have done, ceramic seems to be a pretty loose term. It can be made from only clay, molten glass, aluminum oxide. It seems to be more of a noun for reference of a descriptive quality. They have ceramic and porcelain tile at lowes and home depot, but they are glazed. I think I am going to buy 1 and have them cut it there "for free". Take it home and sand off the glaze.

Actually I just found out they do have unglazed ceramic tile at home depot. Looks like I have a new project this week. lol
 
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Also, in reply to ceramic hones... I met a guy that is an electrician. He said old light bulbs (I don't remember which kind) have a ceramic rod in them for one reason or another. When he has to replace the bulbs for people, he recovers the ceramic rod, and sells it as a knife sharpening rod. I didn't by one for two reasons, first, he didn't have any, second, I couldn't imagine trying to hone a razor on a round rod. Maybe I should get a couple and make a knife sharpening rig out of them.

The "ceramic rods" from light bulbs are from low pressure sodium bulbs if I remember correctly. Anyway, that sort of industrial lighting has them. Bulbs cost about $90 new a few years ago. I was told the same thing about using them for sharpening at the time, but I saw no need to keep any from the ones I worked with. They do seem to have a very fine grained surface. Quartz, if memory serves.

@ Phrankow: What were your observations on the Cnat you have? Why do you disfavor it?
 
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What would you like to know?

Just about anything. Size of the garnets, composition of the host materials, associated strata in the formation, how the strata were formed, age. Like I said, just about anything. Mother nature has a habit of doing the same thing in different places. That's a long term snipe hunt for me. There are garnets here in AZ. The question is whether mother nature duplicated the trick and whether I can find it if she did. Probably not, but no harm in looking into it. Hey, I've spent countless hours prospecting, metal detecting, rockhounding and all that. It's good for a nice hike and you always find something interesting even if it isn't what you went looking for. The joy is in the hunt, so to speak.
 
Just about anything. Size of the garnets, composition of the host materials, associated strata in the formation, how the strata were formed, age. Like I said, just about anything. Mother nature has a habit of doing the same thing in different places. That's a long term snipe hunt for me. There are garnets here in AZ. The question is whether mother nature duplicated the trick and whether I can find it if she did. Probably not, but no harm in looking into it. Hey, I've spent countless hours prospecting, metal detecting, rockhounding and all that. It's good for a nice hike and you always find something interesting even if it isn't what you went looking for. The joy is in the hunt, so to speak.
In short, coticule/BBW combos are essentially interstratified (laminated) shales (BBW) and volcanic ejecta (coti). The original seafloor sediments were high in MnO, Fe2O3, and montmorillonite/swelling clay (BBW shales) and were deposited in calm waters and then were suddenly interrupted by rapid periods of volcanic tuff deposition. This is why there is a sharp contact between the BBW and the coti layers. Alternating periods of calm/abrupt change over time and other factors resulted in the different coticule ‘veins’. Metamorphic processes changed the mineralogy etc. all around resulting in garnets and the suite of phases that we see today. The coticule layer is finer-grained and higher in Mn-bearing (spessartine) garnet which are also finer-grained than the BBW garnets (typically, ~5-15 u for the coti and ~10-25u for the BBW, according to coticule.be).

These are very unique conditions of formation. Other ‘coticule-like’ rocks are known to exist, the closest to the Ardenne being in Nova Scotia with other less similar rocks of the same type found in the northern Appalachians of the US.

There is lit out there. Check out 'Stavelo Massif'. Also:
Lamens et al., 1986. J. Geol Soc. 143: 253-258.
Theye, 1996. J. Petrology.
Kramm in Contrib. to Mineral. Petrol. and more recent work.

Cutting ability is not only due to the hardness and higher garnet content of the coti, but also to the fact that coticules release their garnet to slurry much more readily than do BBW - and different coticules release garnets/slurry at different rates as well. This suggests greater cementing in the BBWs, probably by Fe2O3 (hematite, etc.). Slurry thickness also bears on effective garnet content.

Typical mineralogy of the coticule rocks include (as shown by data from my particular La Veinette combo):

Phase ................................BBW....Coticule
wt. %
Quartz................................38..........27
Spessartine (garnet)...............3.........28
Muscovite (mica)..................41.........39
Rutile (TiO2).........................2......... 3
Chlorite (Fe-rich) ...................3......... 3
Hematite (Fe2O3)...................9.........tr
Kaolinite...............................5......... 1

(sorry for the klewgy table; cannot format here...)

Phyllosilicates (clay minerals), including here both mica and chlorite, are the dominant phases in both the BBW and coticule. These provide polishing in the absence of garnet (in slurry).
:wacko::letterk1::letterk1::letterk1:
:w00t:
 
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@ Phrankow: What were your observations on the Cnat you have? Why do you disfavor it?

To start with it is Very V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W

Secondly I get very nice results from my coticule in not very much time.

The main part of my disfavor is that I have a usable system that provides a very suitable edge, and putting over 100 finishing laps on the Cnat does not improve the edge (shave comfort) over finishing on my green coticule - the edges feel about the same.

I bought the hone in a fit of HAD while ordering other stuff so the shipping was effectively free...

Phil
 
In short, coticule/BBW combos are essentially interstratified (laminated) shales (BBW) and volcanic ejecta (coti). The original seafloor sediments were high in MnO, Fe2O3, and montmorillonite/swelling clay (BBW shales) and were deposited in calm waters and then were suddenly interrupted by rapid periods of volcanic tuff deposition. This is why there is a sharp contact between the BBW and the coti layers. Alternating periods of calm/abrupt change over time and other factors resulted in the different coticule ‘veins’. Metamorphic processes changed the mineralogy etc. all around resulting in garnets and the suite of phases that we see today. The coticule layer is finer-grained and higher in Mn-bearing (spessartine) garnet which are also finer-grained than the BBW garnets (typically, ~5-15 u for the coti and ~10-25u for the BBW, according to coticule.be).

These are very unique conditions of formation. Other ‘coticule-like’ rocks are known to exist, the closest to the Ardenne being in Nova Scotia with other less similar rocks of the same type found in the northern Appalachians of the US.

There is lit out there. Check out 'Stavelo Massif'. Also:
Lamens et al., 1986. J. Geol Soc. 143: 253-258.
Theye, 1996. J. Petrology.
Kramm in Contrib. to Mineral. Petrol. and more recent work.

Cutting ability is not only due to the hardness and higher garnet content of the coti, but also to the fact that coticules release their garnet to slurry much more readily than do BBW - and different coticules release garnets/slurry at different rates as well. This suggests greater cementing in the BBWs, probably by Fe2O3 (hematite, etc.). Slurry thickness also bears on effective garnet content.

Typical mineralogy of the coticule rocks include (as shown by data from my particular La Veinette combo):

Phase ................................BBW....Coticule
wt. %
Quartz................................38..........27
Spessartine (garnet)...............3.........28
Muscovite (mica)..................41.........39
Rutile (TiO2).........................2......... 3
Chlorite (Fe-rich) ...................3......... 3
Hematite (Fe2O3)...................9.........tr
Kaolinite...............................5......... 1

(sorry for the klewgy table; cannot format here...)

Phyllosilicates (clay minerals), including here both mica and chlorite, are the dominant phases in both the BBW and coticule. These provide polishing in the absence of garnet (in slurry).
:wacko::letterk1::letterk1::letterk1:
:w00t:

Oh man, you are my hero! That's the sort of info I have been looking for for a while. The info will get a lot of study, that's for sure. AZ is known for the gem quality pyrope off the Navajo Res and a real hash of geological features. Should make it easy to spot in sediments or rock with a little magnification. Hmmm... might go down & have a chat with the state geologist. He's a pretty cool dude and might have some helpful ideas.

To start with it is Very V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W

Secondly I get very nice results from my coticule in not very much time.

The main part of my disfavor is that I have a usable system that provides a very suitable edge, and putting over 100 finishing laps on the Cnat does not improve the edge (shave comfort) over finishing on my green coticule - the edges feel about the same.

I bought the hone in a fit of HAD while ordering other stuff so the shipping was effectively free...

Phil

Thanks! That's some food for thought. I use some Arkies I've managed to aquire. They do a decent job and are fairly slow as well, but speed isn't a priority for me. Smoother & sharper always is. Of course, there's the built in limit for that as well.
 
AZ is known for the gem quality pyrope off the Navajo Res and a real hash of geological features. Should make it easy to spot in sediments or rock with a little magnification. Hmmm... might go down & have a chat with the state geologist. He's a pretty cool dude and might have some helpful ideas.
Again, garnets are common, but the unique combination of very fine and well-sorted garnets contained in fine-grained metasediments that can be easily released to slurry is really rare. I wish you happy garnet hunting in AZ; finding a coticule-like material will be tough....
 
Again, garnets are common, but the unique combination of very fine and well-sorted garnets contained in fine-grained metasediments that can be easily released to slurry is really rare. I wish you happy garnet hunting in AZ; finding a coticule-like material will be tough....

Thanks! That's very kind. Honestly, I don't expect to find anything like a coticule but since the hunt will be for material suitable to make a hone, it sure makes sense to learn what I can. What I am primarily interested in will be quartz type materials I have seen before when hiking/prospecting. But like you say, garnets are common. It may pay to go with an open mind. There's some remarkably varied material out there. Moreso than I ever encoutered in NC (where I am from originally). With any luck, we will try a camping trip not this weekend, but the next. Need a spare wheel for the rover first.
 
Good information Woodash! Thanks for adding to my little hone making experience. I rather enjoy a good conversation between open spirited intelligent creatures such as you guys here. I am still working on synthetic whetstones and the recipes. I poured a couple more hones and will take pics soon as they cure/cook.

I found this information on a description of a ceramic hone made for space age quality and found it informative:

Spaceage ceramic is manufactured by pressing alumina oxide at 15,000#PSI and scinted at 3,000F. Ceramic products can withstand temperatures of 3,000F, have a compression of 300,000#PSI and a hardness of 9.5

And this is space age ceramic but the same process. Just with more pressure and higher temperatures. My dad gave me the idea of using his 10 ton jack and using one of our old dump trucks to apply the tons of pressure. And When I plan on building a knife forge I will also build a small kiln. When I have the cash of course. As for now I will keep experimenting. And hope I can build a makeshift rock saw in the near future soon.

I molded a polishing stone that is very ceramic like. I'll post the pics as soon as It's done cooking/curing. Keep up the good work fellas! :)
 
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