Oldest Single Ring known

[mmbcastle]

So, by way of attacking this question from a different angle, what are the serial numbers of any double rings we have out there?

[ERVARGASNY]

Im Curious, is it possible for an inner barrel/shaft of any single ring or double ring be inter changed? Im pretty sure it can be done? And if someone doest that there is no way of telling the real time that razor wad made? That change Barrel/Shaft could of been from a double ring?

[Tillerman7]

OK, here's another entry on this controversial subject. I picked up this single ring in a Times Square box for a steal, hoping that it would turn out to be an early 1906 4xx,xxx serial number.




It arrived this week, and of course my first action was to pull out the shaft and check the serial number. Much to my astonishment, it appears to read 280,226 . Got out the magnifying glass and could not detect even a hint of a letter before the number. The blade plate has no markings, and the tube has the 1904 pat. stamping.





After perusing quite a few threads on the subject, i could only find mention of one other single ring with a 2xx,xxx number (288,248), which was mentioned here: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthr...er+single+ring
Of course, the single and double ring shafts are identical, so there is no way to really tell if one was switched at some point in the past 105 years.

I'm still happy to have a great old case and razor for $20, but disappointed that I may never know for sure if it is a prototype, test market razor, or just a mis-matched set.

Think you might be able to contact Gillette? Would they be any help?

[ERVARGASNY]

So, by way of attacking this question from a different angle, what are the serial numbers of any double rings we have out there?

The lowest ive seen is 4647 :o) but there could be a lower one out there?

[mmbcastle]

Im Curious, is it possible for an inner barrel/shaft of any single ring or double ring be inter changed? Im pretty sure it can be done? And if someone doest that there is no way of telling the real time that razor wad made? That change Barrel/Shaft could of been from a double ring?

That is one theory of how these have come to be (either through repairs, marriages, or outright deception), but there appear to be so many examples, it's hard to discount them all. The advertising angle is one approach which agrees with Krumholz/Gillette's assertion of June 1906. However, part of what I'm trying to find out is a survey of actual serial number mappings to dates. The early serial number/date mapping is just a guess based on approximate production numbers.

So, by way of attacking this question from a different angle, what are the serial numbers of any double rings we have out there?

The lowest ive seen is 4647 :o) but there could be a lower one out there?

I was referring to the latest/highest double ring serial numbers. It is an interesting exercise to find the earliest surviving serial number too though.

[Mike H]

There is a listing B&B members who own a double ring and the serial numbers in the wiki.

http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Gillette_Double_Ring

[ERVARGASNY]

There is a listing B&B members who own a double ring and the serial numbers in the wiki.

http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Gillette_Double_Ring

Thanks, How can i get my Pat. Apl'd For on that list ?

[MacDaddy]

Thanks, How can i get my Pat. Apl'd For on that list ?

Just click the "Edit" link for that section, over to the right of the heading, and copy the syntax of one of the existing rows to insert a new one with your info.

[Domminigan]

Wait a tick... I'm at work and my pictures are not accessible to me, but I had a non-serial numbered pat apl'd for (Still do technically but can't find it) Double Ring who's barrel absolutely was NOT interchangeable with any single ring. Even when fully twisted on it left a gap at the bottom. Trying to put a single ring innards into the double ring's handle didn't allow the razor's threads to fully engage as the barrel of the double ring was simply too long.
Are most single ring and double ring parts interchangeable?

[mmbcastle]

There is a listing B&B members who own a double ring and the serial numbers in the wiki.

http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Gillette_Double_Ring

Those are all consistent with the serial number charts. However, two are a lot higher than the "low number" single rings we've had.

I wonder if those showing up outside the US has any significance? Perhaps they used the leftover barrels for the export market rather than have multiple products in the states?

[MacDaddy]

Wait a tick... I'm at work and my pictures are not accessible to me, but I had a non-serial numbered pat apl'd for (Still do technically but can't find it) Double Ring who's barrel absolutely was NOT interchangeable with any single ring. Even when fully twisted on it left a gap at the bottom. Trying to put a single ring innards into the double ring's handle didn't allow the razor's threads to fully engage as the barrel of the double ring was simply too long.
Are most single ring and double ring parts interchangeable?

I just checked my two Double Rings -- one is a 1905, and one is a pre-patent, non-serialed 1903/'04 -- against an oldish Single Ring (1907), and my non-serialed barrel is definitely larger than the other two. The knob is slightly longer than the other two, as is the overall barrel. I can use any of the other two inner barrels to screw up that pre-patent razor good and tight, but that barrel won't work in either of the other two razors. The threaded shaft on the cap bottoms out inside the barrel before the knob hits the bottom of the handle tube. However, the 1905 Double Ring's barrel is completely interchangeable with the Single Ring's.

So, assuming I've got a valid sampling here, it would be possible that we could be seeing Double Rings of any age showing up with barrels from a Single Ring. Or Single Rings showing up with barrels from a later model Double Ring.

[Domminigan]

That makes sense. I'm still having difficulty finding the pictures and it was a while ago that I last saw the pre-patent Double Ring, so I'm sure that your findings are the same as mine.
I just wonder if all the pre-patent no serial number double rings were larger and not compatibly-threaded for the later double and single rings or if there is another solution to the mystery of the larger double rings.

[alex2363]

Thanks, How can i get my Pat. Apl'd For on that list ?

Er, I can help you if you want to put your in too

[Mark1966]

I'm not sure that this will work but I've combined the details from this thread, the Double Ring details from the wiki and the details from some other set you can link to from my Gold Single Ring set thread to come up with a serial number order list (the ones with '0' as the serial numbers are the ones with no serial number):

Owner/ Location	Serial Number	Type
Canberra, Australia	0	Double Ring
Charleston, WV	0	Double Ring
Chicago, IL	0	Double Ring
IL, USA	0	Double Ring
Wichita, KS	0	Double Ring
Glendale, NY	4647	Double Ring
Dongguan, China	6768	Double Ring
Indiana	10190	Double Ring
Harrisonburg, VA	12789	Double Ring
Michigan	15673	Double Ring
Jenks, Oklahoma	16951	Double Ring
Charleston, WV	21964	Double Ring
Canberra, Australia	27300	Double Ring
Houston, TX	33019	Double Ring
Detroit, MI	38815	Double Ring
Birmingham, AL	44757	Double Ring
Charleston, WV	45107	Double Ring
Appleton, WI	50038	Double Ring
Dongguan, China	58903	Double Ring
Canberra, Australia	61408	Double Ring
CA, USA	62936	Double Ring
Weston, MA USA	63837	Double Ring
Indiana	64345	Double Ring
Portland, OR USA	209740	Double Ring
Iowa	214432	Double Ring
Detroit, MI	236598	Double Ring
Jacksonville, FL	239848	Double Ring
Parma, Italy	256251	Double Ring
San Antonio, TX	265555	Double Ring
Dongguan, China	272396	Double Ring
CA, USA	273926	Double Ring
prophetic_joe	278278	Single Ring
shekoujay	280226	Single Ring
Manning	280868	Single Ring
Elmerwood	281802	Single Ring
t_Rick	288248	Single Ring
shekoujay	290609	Single Ring
GoTeeGuy	299385	Single Ring
Mark1966	G306068	Gold Single Ring
eBay sighting	308091	Single Ring
quailrunner	G308151	Gold Single Ring (engraved)
eBay sighting	319510	Single Ring
BroJohn	320776	Single Ring
GB5	324834	Single Ring
shekoujay	329875	Single Ring
sleddog	332759	Single Ring
staxchipswell	337100	Single Ring
Mr-Razor	337905	Single Ring
TCP	359651	Single Ring
Oldguy	395005	Single Ring
tnsplayer	G401741	Gold Single Ring
shavefreak	G401861	Gold Single Ring (engraved)
Dongguan, China	458142	Double Ring
highball	589068	Double Ring
Quebec, Canada	589850	Double Ring

So you can see that the early ones are clearly predominantly Double Rings but Single Rings dominate from 278278 - suggesting the traditional year dating cut offs or commencement dates may be a little out.

The two high number Double Rings are just odd - left overs? With Gillette you just never know.

Interestingly the four known gold plated Single Rings are grouped close-ish together in two pairs, both with a plan and engraved one!

I'd pop this in the wiki but every time I touch that it crashes on me

EDIT: added Elmerwood's new addition in

EDIT_2: added in highball's double ring mentioned in a post here.

EDIT_3: added in sleddog's SR

[elmerwood]

Nice chart Mark. I was curious as to the earliest single ring we've seen as I just picked up a new one with #281802. So this one falls in with the rest of the early single rings.

[mmbcastle]

That's a nice chart, and heartening that it has a nice clean cutoff between singles and doubles.

It does suggest the old serial number charts are off by about 100,000 units. This is really no surprise since the old chart was based on a SWAG by Gillette based on production numbers.

The June 1906 date does still hold water because that is backed up by searches of advertising. That is about when they changed the model they were selling. The discrepancy between dates and serials could be due to production lag, built up inventory of interchangeable parts or any number of other factors.

[Mark1966]

Nice chart Mark. I was curious as to the earliest single ring we've seen as I just picked up a new one with #281802. So this one falls in with the rest of the early single rings.

Added into the chart!

That's a nice chart, and heartening that it has a nice clean cutoff between singles and doubles.

It does suggest the old serial number charts are off by about 100,000 units. This is really no surprise since the old chart was based on a SWAG by Gillette based on production numbers.

The June 1906 date does still hold water because that is backed up by searches of advertising. That is about when they changed the model they were selling. The discrepancy between dates and serials could be due to production lag, built up inventory of interchangeable parts or any number of other factors.

So does this imply that production estimates of the Double Rings are inflated by about 100,000?

[mmbcastle]

Yes. This thread has mostly been about figuring out the actual start of production for the Single Ring, but that is a definite implication of the numbers.

I think this is strong evidence, there were around 100,000 fewer Double Rings produced than first thought. Something in the neighborhood of 250,000 total production (marked with the patent date).

[almaga]

Very nice and informative

[Mark1966]

Just added another high number DR