Discussion thread for B/S/T rules Clarification

[ieschwoch]

** General comments not directed at anyone***

A lot of the BST problems come from us not knowing what our volunteer mods have to put up with.
We won't know as it is private behind-the-scenes business.

If there wasn't fraudulent sellers, if there wasn't the need for rules then would the BST run all by itself?
I don't think so.

The fact that the BST has been re-vamped several times over a short period of time tells me that it's becoming a burden on those who have to administer it.

Trying to protect new members from possible fraudulent sales is very important.
B&B is a community that prides itself on helping members.

Maybe if the WTB portion isn't working, we might scrap it all together.
Learn how to use the search function to find what you are looking for.

I agree that the WTB portion needed to be tweaked. When I was a newbie I had no problem obtaining basic gear from standard FS threads, and a lot of newbies buy their first shaving setup from a vendor anyway (which is what I did).

I still don't fully understand why it's necessary to space out sales more. Even if people are power sellers on the B/S/T, offering items up for sale every week, isn't that good for B&B as long as the prices remain below market/eBay value?

[Crixus]

The BST isn't a central part of this board, it's a "tolerated evil".

While this may be the point of view from the landlords and administrators of B&B, from the grandstand it sure appears the B/S/T is a key cog in the enthusiasm of the relatively newer members. As I've watched the membership numbers grow substantially over the last couple years, it's clear the everchanging group of new members is what helps keep the shaving fora of B&B vibrant.

New DE shaver Joe may be armed with his drug store Shea Moisture Brush and a puck of Colonel Conk, but the chatter in the razor, brush, soap and cream forums and the chances to try some of these exciting products at a relatively reduced price from other members on the forum and join in the talks as someone who has actually used Brand X and can comment accordingly is huge for B&B's electricity. And the way it's set up, after he has put his time in, he can actually offer some of his overstocks for sale to folks who want to buy what he has already been able to try.

I don't have a clue about the business model of B&B, and frankly it doesn't concern me. I enjoy being on the site and participating in various discussions on most of the different sections. But it would seem very short-sighted to not acknowledge how crucial new membership is to keep the forward momentum--and how much the B/S/T pages play a large part in the enthusiasm of those newer members.

[Gamma]

I think the tagging system could be handled better - multiple tags allowed, along with multiple tag selection for searching. The module for this, as built - is probably in an embryonic state and I would assume that better sorting options will follow. When designing these options - it's best to start simple and progress rather than try to do it all at once. One method would be to have a left-side nav with check boxes that allowed the user to tick off boxes that assigned a specific search to the page.

Me - pesonally - I think that 'wanting to buy' and 'wanting to sell' are concepts that are different enough to warrant their own headings. Combining them into one list might seem, on paper, to be a good idea at one level - but dumping everything into a pile and giving members only very basic tools to sort it out doesn't equate to a user-friendly experience.

I like to shop, I like to buy stuff, and I like to sell off stuff I don't need, want, or have two of. The last part can be handled any number of ways - I don't 'need' to sell anything, nor do I 'need' to sell it here on the BST.
While I'm on this leg of my thoughts - I'd like to point out that I didn't enjoy being referred to as being part of a 'necessary evil'. I enjoy the BST - I feel that it's an integral (core) part of B&B and I don't see anything evil about it. Frankly - I see way less 'commercialism' on the BST than I do in other areas of the board.

Someone above posted a graphic that alluded to change being good. Well - change isn't always good but change is always inevitable. What people fail to realize (quite often) is that in order for change to be successfull, it usually happens on both sides of the fence at the same time.

I read where it appears that some B&B members have been named 'powersellers'. I find it odd that no members have been referred to as 'powerbuyers'. I wonder what my personal status is, and I wonder if I have been judged to be a powerseller of great evil since I have posted BST for-sale threads often. Mostly - my for-sale postings are to clear out what I'm not going to use. I tend to try as many things as possible - I find that to be the only way I will know (with authority) what I like and do not like.
I suppose it might appear that I am a hone-seller to someone that is only looking at numbers of posts and the items therein. I'm not a 'seller' - I'm not 'commercial'. I just happend to take the long path toward finding a honing solution that pleases me. Selling the stones (on the BST) I tested and moved past seemed like a logical thing to do. So I wonder - have I contributed to the 'demonic powerseller' overthrow of the BST?

At any rate - for me - the BST isn't about 'selling' - it's a place to see things I've not seen before, 'meet' new members that I might not run into any other way, learn more about items from reading what someone might put into their description that would not be found so easily in a thread buried in an archive, etc.
Sometimes - I just like to look for the sake of looking. Window shopping.
So yeah, cutting down the number of posts in the BST will affect me - not by limiting my ability to sell something - but rather by minimizing what I find to be a super interesting part of the site.
So - there you have it. I like something that the board owners/managers find to be 'evil'.

From an objective POV - I can understand how someone who was on this board at the very beginning might believe they are sensing a twist in the direction of interest based on BST postings. I don't know this for a fact - I'm just working on theory. However, at work I've set up many kinds of projects - and I've watched my initial goals and aspiratons go through many stages of metamorphosis as time passed. It certainly can be stressful to me when 'my' aesthetic or goals appear to be circumvented, ignored, or discarded. Perhaps that is the case here, and/or maybe/probably there are in fact other concerns that will never be visible to the membership. Such matters are really none of my concern I suppose.

Whatever the case - it is what it is.
This isn't my house and I don't get to make the rules.
Every house has it's own set of rules, some I will agree with, others - not so much.
When I walk in the front door of this house, I agree to follow the rules of this house.

[elderberry99]

I think the tagging system could be handled better - multiple tags allowed, along with multiple tag selection for searching. The module for this, as built - is probably in an embryonic state and I would assume that better sorting options will follow. When designing these options - it's best to start simple and progress rather than try to do it all at once. One method would be to have a left-side nav with check boxes that allowed the user to tick off boxes that assigned a specific search to the page.

Me - pesonally - I think that 'wanting to buy' and 'wanting to sell' are concepts that are different enough to warrant their own headings. Combining them into one list might seem, on paper, to be a good idea at one level - but dumping everything into a pile and giving members only very basic tools to sort it out doesn't equate to a user-friendly experience.

I like to shop, I like to buy stuff, and I like to sell off stuff I don't need, want, or have two of. The last part can be handled any number of ways - I don't 'need' to sell anything, nor do I 'need' to sell it here on the BST.
While I'm on this leg of my thoughts - I'd like to point out that I didn't enjoy being referred to as being part of a 'necessary evil'. I enjoy the BST - I feel that it's an integral (core) part of B&B and I don't see anything evil about it. Frankly - I see way less 'commercialism' on the BST than I do in other areas of the board.

Someone above posted a graphic that alluded to change being good. Well - change isn't always good but change is always inevitable. What people fail to realize (quite often) is that in order for change to be successfull, it usually happens on both sides of the fence at the same time.

I read where it appears that some B&B members have been named 'powersellers'. I find it odd that no members have been referred to as 'powerbuyers'. I wonder what my personal status is, and I wonder if I have been judged to be a powerseller of great evil since I have posted BST for-sale threads often. Mostly - my for-sale postings are to clear out what I'm not going to use. I tend to try as many things as possible - I find that to be the only way I will know (with authority) what I like and do not like.
I suppose it might appear that I am a hone-seller to someone that is only looking at numbers of posts and the items therein. I'm not a 'seller' - I'm not 'commercial'. I just happend to take the long path toward finding a honing solution that pleases me. Selling the stones (on the BST) I tested and moved past seemed like a logical thing to do. So I wonder - have I contributed to the 'demonic powerseller' overthrow of the BST?

At any rate - for me - the BST isn't about 'selling' - it's a place to see things I've not seen before, 'meet' new members that I might not run into any other way, learn more about items from reading what someone might put into their description that would not be found so easily in a thread buried in an archive, etc.
Sometimes - I just like to look for the sake of looking. Window shopping.
So yeah, cutting down the number of posts in the BST will affect me - not by limiting my ability to sell something - but rather by minimizing what I find to be a super interesting part of the site.
So - there you have it. I like something that the board owners/managers find to be 'evil'.

From an objective POV - I can understand how someone who was on this board at the very beginning might believe they are sensing a twist in the direction of interest based on BST postings. I don't know this for a fact - I'm just working on theory. However, at work I've set up many kinds of projects - and I've watched my initial goals and aspiratons go through many stages of metamorphosis as time passed. It certainly can be stressful to me when 'my' aesthetic or goals appear to be circumvented, ignored, or discarded. Perhaps that is the case here, and/or maybe/probably there are in fact other concerns that will never be visible to the membership. Such matters are really none of my concern I suppose.

Whatever the case - it is what it is.
This isn't my house and I don't get to make the rules.
Every house has it's own set of rules, some I will agree with, others - not so much.
When I walk in the front door of this house, I agree to follow the rules of this house.

This could not have been put any better!
Super post my friend.

[global_dev]

how about a quick multi-prefix sort mod

http://dev.geekpoint.net/articles/vb...-forumdisplay/

[DanOK]

You know....this thread is beginning to sound like group therapy from hell. If we are all in agreement that "When I walk in the front door of this house, I agree to follow the rules of this house." can we get back to the important stuff like fixing the alphabet search in the review section.

[BowTieGuy]

Well said, Gamma. I too have been a little "put-off" by the demonization of so-called "powersellers." I have bought here, I have sold here, and I have traded here, and just about every transaction has been delightful, pleasant, and gentlemanly. I still believe that most folks here are good and honest, and continue to be pleased with the overall tone and atmosphere here - a place where a "too-low" price is just as likely to invite corrective comments as one that is too low; a place where sellers routinely and enthusiastically "make good" on issues with items that may not be as expected, etc. A place where veteran members (and mods) take care of the "noobs" and try to ensure fair play all around. The membership will instantly comment on the quality, value and pricing of any items offered, should they be out of line, and the end result to anyone who would attempt to buy too low and sell too high would be a thread full of items that don't sell! In short, the friends I have made on this site have been through the BST and WTB areas.

As some of you know, I travel extensively and usually have time during my business trips to make side-visits to antique malls and junk shops, and I'm constantly on the lookout for shaving-related items. I enjoy the hunt, I enjoy cleaning and restoring old razors, and I enjoy passing them along to other members who may not have the luxury of nearby shops, and who wish to avoid the crapshoot that is that big auction site. I have had interesting and enjoyable discussions and transactions with members all over the world (yes, I send "non-CONUS!") and everyone in all of these cases has been pleased with the end result - even in some cases which involved damages in shipping. So my question is, why the demonization of those who wish to sell frequently, or who enjoy the activity inherent in a vibrant *central* marketplace? I can anticipate the answer will be, there's a place for that and it's not here - take it the auction site, etc. Inherent in that response is a negative attitude toward those of us who simply like to buy these wonderful things at a more brisk pace, and sell them off at the same brisk pace. The vendor/hobbyist areas simply don't seem to get the same level of attention as the main BST area, in my view. The other response being suggested - is that this was always intended to be a place where folks can relieve themselves of a few excess items for the benefit of others, not a commercial site. I believe it still is exactly that, albeit a bit busier than originally anticipated (again, where's the harm?), and the fact that some do it with more items or more frequently should not tar these good folks as some kind of ne-er-do-wells. Sometimes growth and change is hard to accept - I would suggest that in this case that applies to the goose as well as the gander.

For the record, I don't sell items that frequently (it's kind of a pain on my computer, actually) so a selling time limit won't have any impact on me, but when I do, it is likely to be a combination of razors, both straights and DE/SE, maybe brushes, some high-end, some for beginners, and God forbid I have just now discovered fountain pens! So the tagging really doesn't help for my purposes; if someone is trying to find a razor and I *don't* tag, does that buyer not see my sale? Apparently not. I am also troubled that a new member looking for a starter kit can't post a WTB, and think that "market forces" will quickly come into play when a zero-post lurker comes sniffing around for mint Toggles (though again, if both parties to a transaction are pleased with the outcome, what business is it of anyone else's? Is it a desire to have 100% enforcement of rules, and tracking down and stamping out every possible loophole, to the inconvenience of the vast majority? Exactly how big a problem is this and who is being hurt?). I LOVE browsing through the BST just to see what's out there, and it has suddenly become visually cluttered - combining the FS and WTB doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

In sum - in reading some of this discussion, I have been reminded of the homeowner association where I used to live. The original intentions of the regulations- a clean, safe attractive space which helped everyone by maintaining property values - devolved over time into being told what color I could and could not paint my mailbox, and comments that I could either swallow it or move if I didn't like it. Suggestions that members somehow "lack commitment" or should take their attention elsewhere, in my opinion do not exhibit the attitude of mutual respect, or the spirit and calibre of discussion that I have come to expect from this site or its many devoted members.

I will look forward to the continuation of this discussion and remain a devotee of the site; it will be interesting to follow the responses and whether any additional changes or updates to the site occur as we go forward.

Respectfully,

Doug B

[luvmysuper]

Suggestions that members somehow "lack commitment" or should take their attention elsewhere, in my opinion do not exhibit the attitude of mutual respect, or the spirit and calibre of discussion that I have come to expect from this site or its many devoted members.

I would certainly agree that comments about commitment to the site do not exhibit respect.
So I will continue to reply to members who post here that they are questioning their commitment to the site because of these changes with the caveat that if these relatively minor changes cause someone to question their commitment to the site, that commitment was rather shaky to begin with.

If an individual doen't want to have his "commitment" to the site (whatever that really means) questioned, then he shouldn't broach that subject by throwing it up into peoples faces by claiming that his "commitment" is wavering.

Likewise, the idle threat that "if I can't have it my way, I'll go play somewhere else" doesn't instill much desire to try to take that individuals suggestions seriously.

We listen to feedback, if we see a suggestion that works and is possible, we'll take that on board and try to work it into the process. It's been done numerous times in this forum, and it will continue to be that way.
The BST is a part of B&B and we are committed to making it work well for the benefit of all B&B members.

I understand perfectly what you mean about the Homeowners Association analogy, and to a certain extent you are right.
Certainly if this were my full time job, I'd have no issue deleting, and writing members about the Giant Purple Large Mouth Bass Mailbox they have put up. But this isn't my full time job, and after about the 30th large mouth bass mailbox, it does begin to wear on one a bit.

The concept that a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch is not a new one, and often it is the few who fail to comply with "gentlemens agreements" that create the need for defined rules.

I wish that I could share with you the sheer number of PM's I get from people wanting to dissect and parse the guidelines so that they fit what they want to do. Add to that the sheer number of individuals who simply ignore the guidelines and do what they want to do anyway. This is expected with a site the size of B&B, but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with even though expected to some extent.

In any case, we will try to take all legitimate suggestions seriously, and all individuals who post with respect will be treated with respect.

[BowTieGuy]

Phil,
I thank you sincerely for that reasoned and reasonable response, and wish you the best in your (currently thankless) role. I too have noted the public responses from some folks who wish to dissect the rules and squeeze in whatever their intended course of action may be, so I can only imagine the private wranglings as well.

All the best,

Doug

[mftoms59]

Wow... After reading this I'm reminded of all the grumbling when the site was revamped last year and it took awhile to adjust to the new skins & layouts. BTW, I too wish the Review forum was fixed to be used alphabetically, anyway, after the kinks were worked out I think it has been a nice improvement. I've yet to post on the B/S/T, but have window shopped & purchased there, I do dislike adding the W/T/B to the B/S/T, too much clutter.

As far as Post & Time requirements for the W/T/B, maybe they are needed, I'd recommend about half of the Post & Time requirements of the W/T/B may be more reasonable and help the newbs who are really in this for the pleasure and experience of a better shave.

I'd recommend reverting to the 7 day requirement for B/S/T if you have the capability to monitor activity automatically, the growth of any community will almost guarantee the rules will be tested sometimes unintentionally. Punishing or excommunicating severe or repeat offenders of the B&B Policies should be the remedy, while those honoring the Policies are free to continue enjoying the site.

With that being said, the changes don't affect my participation in the other Forums and I offer my observations as someone who isn't affected by these changes, with the exception of the combining of W/T/B & B/S/T.

I know first hand venting out of frustration is sometimes unavoidable, and cooler heads will prevail in the end. I hope we as Members have the Patience to let the Mods who Volunteer their Time, work this out.

[ieschwoch]

I'll tack on to my earlier comments that I have the utmost respect for the mods who are engaged in the largely thankless work in keeping a forum as busy as this one up and running. As a member of several different forums I can safely say it isn't a task I'd ever want; there are too many people with different viewpoints involved in any decently sized forum, and there's no way to keep everyone happy.

I'll also add that the rule changes don't impact me in any way and won't affect my participation. I do see the increase to the 14-day waiting period between FS/WTB threads ultimately being bad for B&B, however.

[global_dev]

Wow... the W/T/B to the B/S/T,

WTB is Want To Buy, the reason it fit's in B/S/T is that B/S/T is [want to] Buy/Sell/Trade.

some kind of [Want To] Trade was occurring in section where WTB was allocated..

[Mike'sWorld]

You know....this thread is beginning to sound like group therapy from hell. If we are all in agreement that "When I walk in the front door of this house, I agree to follow the rules of this house." can we get back to the important stuff like discussion of our mutual obsession.

fify

[Dlskier]

I think the multi-prefix in the create and search modes would be a good idea as well. Regardless, it's clear that people are putting in time trying to improve something that is already awesome. Even if you don't agree with their changes, they are trying to improve things and should be treated with respect and gratitude.

[mftoms59]

WTB is Want To Buy, the reason it fit's in B/S/T is that B/S/T is [want to] Buy/Sell/Trade.

some kind of [Want To] Trade was occurring in section where WTB was allocated..

Yes, I do know this, I did read the whole Thread, unfortunately the extra posts from W/T/B does Clutter the B/S/T Sub-Forum which was my point. As I previously posted, repeat offenders of B&B Policy should have progressive disciplinary restrictions up to and including (excommunication) banishment from the site.

[Go West Young Man]

OK, I must apologize, it appears that I expressed my point poorly (not the first time, and certainly not the last! )

"Tolerated evil" might have been a bad word choice. Let's say instead that the B+B was intended to have a B/S/T as a relatively small section of a much larger site. The real community aspect is meant to be in the discussion boards, where we talk and learn, amuse and educate ourselves. I don't think people who actively use the B/S/T are under criticism here, but the people who's activity is primarly in the B/S/T are the ones being looked at. You can do a quick search on any user's history to see how much time they spend contributing to and advancing the topics of conversation versus buying and selling.

If the balance is right on your account, then none of the comments in this thread are aimed at you.

[chicagotrim]

OK, I must apologize, it appears that I expressed my point poorly (not the first time, and certainly not the last! )

"Tolerated evil" might have been a bad word choice. Let's say instead that the B+B was intended to have a B/S/T as a relatively small section of a much larger site. The real community aspect is meant to be in the discussion boards, where we talk and learn, amuse and educate ourselves. I don't think people who actively use the B/S/T are under criticism here, but the people who's activity is primarly in the B/S/T are the ones being looked at. You can do a quick search on any user's history to see how much time they spend contributing to and advancing the topics of conversation versus buying and selling.

If the balance is right on your account, then none of the comments in this thread are aimed at you.

Chris..
Great Post.
Believe it or not, I actually learn a thing or two on the BST. There are plenty of items that go on the BST that I am not familiar with, and then will research them through the search engine on B&B and learn a great deal. Does that make sense? I may not spend a whole lot of time in the Razor forum, but when I saw an Ikon come up the first time on the BST, I was intrigued...researched them and bought one the next time it came around. I will be the first to admit I am on the BST frequently, however I contribute all over this site too.

[elderberry99]

I too am guilty of spending hours on the B/S/T. I love to see all the different types of razors and items that come across. I also take these items and look them up on the web or the bay to see what I can learn about them and why it is everyone would get excited when one of these items comes up for sale or trade. But, I too also post in the different threads and even started a few threads when I have something to say. I find that the B/S/T can be exciting to someone like me who does not know all the different items used in this hobby. I am 60 years old and am not new to wet shaving, but have lost touch in a way for some years when I went to the electric shaver and the goo and 3 and 4 blade razors. I started with a SS and a Tech and am now back to those razors again and need to catch up as to what is out there and what is in use now and I rely on the B/S/T for a lot of the visuals.
I may be guilty of visiting the B/S/T a lot, but I also think I do my fair share of posting in the rest of the forum. I give a lot of credit to the B/S/T. If used correctly, it is a very valuable learning tool as well as a place to buy and sell!
I can honestly say that all the items I have sold on the B/S/T, I have not profited one single dime from any of it, nor do I want to.
Frank

[BBShaver]

FWIW (and it my not be much) i do notice that the BST forum a lot of times has the most users Viewing (right before posting this there 101 which was more than any of the other forums) THIS said while i do not believe it is the heart of this forum OR the sole purpose of B&B it must be conceded that it is probably the most heavily trafficked on B&B.

Just an observation

[Drybonz]

In the past, I have had very little luck with posting WTB's... so I think it's a good thing that the WTB's will get more visibility. Probably will have a better chance of getting some responses.