Honing has reached a plateau

Mike H · Aug 30, 2011

My razors are sharp and provide me a comfortable shave, yet I know they can be sharper.
I have a small Les Lat bout that is very fast, I use dulicot to set the bevel, and then move on to a slower coti using dulicot to finish. The best I can get is HHT 1 off the stone.

I then move to pasted strops. Chromium Oxide and Iron Oxide on Cotton, or CNB 0.25, and 0.125 on bridle leather. Finally strop on plain leather. The best I can do is 3 with the occasional 4.

Is there a suggestion to improve? I think the problem is my razor needs to be sharper coming off the cotis.

The other issue is that I do not see a big difference in using the Cr/Fe vs. the CNB. The edge feels about the same. Does that sound right?

Woodash · Aug 30, 2011

Try going to another bevel setter and then finish on the coti. :w00t:

kwigibocity · Aug 30, 2011

Literally haven't encountered a coticule that I couldn't get hht-3 from before other stuff, and easily 500 have been under my hand. If hht-1 is where you're @, you've gotta be the limiting factor, not the tools.
Try varying the amount of pressure during the coticule #2's time. If you barely put any on, try a round with a little more. Maybe you'll see a hint of hht improvement and then that'll lead to some better scoring down the pasted road.

Mike H · Aug 30, 2011

kwigibocity said:
"...you've gotta be the limiting factor, not the tools."

I figured as much. :blushing:

Thank you!

Kentos · Aug 30, 2011

I find stropping on linen/cotton then leather before the pastes/sprays helps a bit too.

mvh · Aug 30, 2011

HHT 3 of the coticule is doable. haven't managed HHT4 yet. You should try to maximize that, or try some super fine CBN. i really like 0.125µ after my Coticules.

PapaFish · Aug 30, 2011

I can take an edge that will only pass HHT-0 or maybe HHT-1 up to HHT-4 without a problem using only the pasted balsa strop that came with the Poor Man's Strop Kit. I give 100 passes on the Chromium Oxide (HHT-2 or 3), and 100 on the Iron Oxide (HHT-3+), then finish on plain leather (also Poor Man's Strop Kit, HHT-4). Maybe you can try balsa or leather as your substrate instead of cotton. With that being said, I currently am not using pastes, but seeing how good I can get edges straight off the stones, this is a great motivator to get things right before moving on, and I would suggest doing this, too.

I came up with 100 passes for the Cr302 since 50 passes didn't get things to HHT-2+ up and down the whole blade, 75 was really close, and 100 passes did the trick. Once I get my honing down a bit better, I will have to re-assess this number.

jkh · Aug 30, 2011

kwigibocity said:
Literally haven't encountered a coticule that I couldn't get hht-3 from before other stuff, and easily 500 have been under my hand. If hht-1 is where you're @, you've gotta be the limiting factor, not the tools.
Try varying the amount of pressure during the coticule #2's time. If you barely put any on, try a round with a little more. Maybe you'll see a hint of hht improvement and then that'll lead to some better scoring down the pasted road.

Yep, don't be afraid to lean a little on the blade.

Bart · Aug 30, 2011

If you want to improve your honing you got to put those pasted strops away for awhile. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, but once you can manage to push the keenness of your edges past a certain level, right off the hones, you will stand surprised at how you will no longer need the CrO and at the same time that those very fine pastes really need a good basis to deploy their special characteristics.

My advice for you is to hone a razor up to your normal level, which is HHT-1 (the violin). Once there, boosting keenness is a matter of patience. You'll get there one time, and after that, you know it's doable so you'll keep trying till the edge checks out. HHT-3, straight of the Coticule is your goal. Use a clean thick hair and try to pop it at half and inch of the point where you're holding it. Make sure to hold the hair by the tip end. (Try it both ends if you're not sure).
It it definitely possible on you Les Latneuses. So, once you've reached your HHT-1 with the method you described, I would go back to the Les Latneuses. Use only water, and start with sets of halfstrokes or circles (whatever), till you see some discoloration in the water. Rinse the stone and repeat. Use the kind of pressure you would put on a pencil eraser. After you've done some work in this fashion, rinse your Coticule and razor well and finish with 50 X-strokes with half of that pressure rinse and finally 50 without any significant pressure. Dry the edge well and check with the HHT. It it doesn't check out, repeat the whole procedure. You're not harming anything. During the finishing stage of X-strokes, try to add some "swiftness" to the strokes that often helps.
I often need to revisit my finishing 3 or 4 times, before the HHT checks out, but it doesn't take long and I've learned that it's always worth the effort.
If the edge passes HHT-3 off the stone, stropping on clean linen and leather will improve it even further. I really recommend to test shave before doing any pasted stropping. You might be surprised.

Good luck,
Bart.

Kentos · Aug 30, 2011

Bart said:
If you want to improve your honing you got to put those pasted strops away for awhile. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, but once you can manage to push the keenness of your edges past a certain level, right off the hones, you will stand surprised at how you will no longer need the CrO and at the same time that those very fine pastes really need a good basis to deploy their special characteristics.

My advice for you is to hone a razor up to your normal level, which is HHT-1 (the violin). Once there, boosting keenness is a matter of patience. You'll get there one time, and after that, you know it's doable so you'll keep trying till the edge checks out. HHT-3, straight of the Coticule is your goal. Use a clean thick hair and try to pop it at half and inch of the point where you're holding it. Make sure to hold the hair by the tip end. (Try it both ends if you're not sure).
It it definitely possible on you Les Latneuses. So, once you've reached your HHT-1 with the method you described, I would go back to the Les Latneuses. Use only water, and start with sets of halfstrokes or circles (whatever), till you see some discoloration in the water. Rinse the stone and repeat. Use the kind of pressure you would put on a pencil eraser. After you've done some work in this fashion, rinse your Coticule and razor well and finish with 50 X-strokes with half of that pressure rinse and finally 50 without any significant pressure. Dry the edge well and check with the HHT. It it doesn't check out, repeat the whole procedure. You're not harming anything. During the finishing stage of X-strokes, try to add some "swiftness" to the strokes that often helps.
I often need to revisit my finishing 3 or 4 times, before the HHT checks out, but it doesn't take long and I've learned that it's always worth the effort.
If the edge passes HHT-3 off the stone, stropping on clean linen and leather will improve it even further. I really recommend to test shave before doing any pasted stropping. You might be surprised.

Good luck,
Bart.

I will try that too Bart. I will admit to using the sprays to cut the time I need to spend on the coti, but wow, an HHT-3 off the stone is a challenge I think I want to persue... :thumbup1:

Blix · Aug 30, 2011

Excellent coti advice as always Bart. I have experimented quite a bit with various CBN sprays after coti lately, and my conclusion is that a good coti edge is best left alone, I find the sprays works better after a synthetic progression. CrOx after coti works well though.

Brownbear · Aug 31, 2011

When I have a balky edge and I am sure my bevel is set correctly (dull on glass and give it 20-30 half strokes on each side to confirm) I rub the coticule a couple times with the slurry stone to create a very, very light slurry. Then 30 circles on each side starting at the heel. Thirty in the heel area, 30 in the middle then 30 near the point. Then 20-50 X strokes, rinse stone, 30 more then rinse stone and blade and water only half strokes. This is more or less a technique I think it was Emmanuel posted on coticule.be and it works great for me. So if Bart's advice above doesn't work, try this, which is just a little more aggressive modification.

Thebigspendur · Aug 31, 2011

Forget about the HHT and try shaving with it.

richmondesi · Aug 31, 2011

Well, first of all, don't worry too much about it. Last night it took me 45 minutes to get my Revisor up to shaving sharp... I literally could not get it past HHT-1 for the longest time. Then, I did something similar to what Bart described, and I eventually got it worked out. After stropping, it was a HHT-4 and the shave was great. Sometimes, it just happens. Unfortunately, I was to the point where I thought I was beyond the HHT at all. Lesson learned. I can get a shaving edge without using it, and very consistently, but to get the really nice edge that I expect is proving to be a bit more challenging to judge by "feel" than I originally thought.

Disburden · Aug 31, 2011

Thebigspendur said:
Forget about the HHT and try shaving with it.

+1. I always struggled with this test, maybe it's my hair, I don't know. I usually just test shave and if it's there then it's there. If not I will try some more honing and then shave test another spot for that time around. Just shaving a piece of your sideburn each time can be enough information.

Now other's use the HHT often and it's their guide to a good edge, there's nothing wrong with it but other people can struggle with it.

Mike H · Nov 20, 2014

Bart said:
If you want to improve your honing you got to put those pasted strops away for awhile. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, but once you can manage to push the keenness of your edges past a certain level, right off the hones, you will stand surprised at how you will no longer need the CrO and at the same time that those very fine pastes really need a good basis to deploy their special characteristics.

My advice for you is to hone a razor up to your normal level, which is HHT-1 (the violin). Once there, boosting keenness is a matter of patience. You'll get there one time, and after that, you know it's doable so you'll keep trying till the edge checks out. HHT-3, straight of the Coticule is your goal. Use a clean thick hair and try to pop it at half and inch of the point where you're holding it. Make sure to hold the hair by the tip end. (Try it both ends if you're not sure).
It it definitely possible on you Les Latneuses. So, once you've reached your HHT-1 with the method you described, I would go back to the Les Latneuses. Use only water, and start with sets of halfstrokes or circles (whatever), till you see some discoloration in the water. Rinse the stone and repeat. Use the kind of pressure you would put on a pencil eraser. After you've done some work in this fashion, rinse your Coticule and razor well and finish with 50 X-strokes with half of that pressure rinse and finally 50 without any significant pressure. Dry the edge well and check with the HHT. It it doesn't check out, repeat the whole procedure. You're not harming anything. During the finishing stage of X-strokes, try to add some "swiftness" to the strokes that often helps.
I often need to revisit my finishing 3 or 4 times, before the HHT checks out, but it doesn't take long and I've learned that it's always worth the effort.
If the edge passes HHT-3 off the stone, stropping on clean linen and leather will improve it even further. I really recommend to test shave before doing any pasted stropping. You might be surprised.

Good luck,
Bart.

Bumping an old thread.

I am going to try to ween myself off paste this weekend... again.

David · Nov 20, 2014

Mike, I've not read this whole thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up.
I'm not a big fan of tape, but lately after doing full dilutions I've been taping the spine and doing 30-50 light laps on plain water and I'm getting root in HHT 2-3's off the stone and the shaves are super.

Brianskeet · Nov 20, 2014

Bart said:
If you want to improve your honing you got to put those pasted strops away for awhile. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, but once you can manage to push the keenness of your edges past a certain level, right off the hones, you will stand surprised at how you will no longer need the CrO and at the same time that those very fine pastes really need a good basis to deploy their special characteristics.

My advice for you is to hone a razor up to your normal level, which is HHT-1 (the violin). Once there, boosting keenness is a matter of patience. You'll get there one time, and after that, you know it's doable so you'll keep trying till the edge checks out. HHT-3, straight of the Coticule is your goal. Use a clean thick hair and try to pop it at half and inch of the point where you're holding it. Make sure to hold the hair by the tip end. (Try it both ends if you're not sure).
It it definitely possible on you Les Latneuses. So, once you've reached your HHT-1 with the method you described, I would go back to the Les Latneuses. Use only water, and start with sets of halfstrokes or circles (whatever), till you see some discoloration in the water. Rinse the stone and repeat. Use the kind of pressure you would put on a pencil eraser. After you've done some work in this fashion, rinse your Coticule and razor well and finish with 50 X-strokes with half of that pressure rinse and finally 50 without any significant pressure. Dry the edge well and check with the HHT. It it doesn't check out, repeat the whole procedure. You're not harming anything. During the finishing stage of X-strokes, try to add some "swiftness" to the strokes that often helps.
I often need to revisit my finishing 3 or 4 times, before the HHT checks out, but it doesn't take long and I've learned that it's always worth the effort.
If the edge passes HHT-3 off the stone, stropping on clean linen and leather will improve it even further. I really recommend to test shave before doing any pasted stropping. You might be surprised.

Good luck,
Bart.

That is a perfect description! I am a fan of not being shy about a little pressure on a coti and have struggled to tell other people how much I am using. Your description is perfect. Thank you.

Seraphim · Nov 20, 2014

If your honing has plateaued, it means it's time to buy more hones.

Simple as that.
:thumbup:

SliceOfLife · Nov 20, 2014

Maybe your stone is slipping around on your honing surface. I hear they have these thin, grippy films you can buy to use as an abrasive surface to keep your stones in place while you're honing.

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Honing has reached a plateau

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