Tire / Alignment Question / Problem

Okay...brace yourselves for an epic tale.

End of January 2011. I purchase 4 new tires for my van. We'll call this place Jason's. I noticed that it pulled slightly to the left, but didn't think much of it. It got much worse. So, I figured that I better have an alignment done.

Tuesday - August 16 - I have an appointment for a Tire Rotation, Oil Change, and Alignment at a (different) business. We'll call it John's. The guy at John's tells me that he can't do an alignment without first replacing the outer tie rod ends. So, I tell him to go ahead and do that. Once it's all finished up (alignment and all), he tells me that it still pulled to the left. So, he swapped the front tires, and now it pulls to the right. He tells me that one of the tires has a "radial pull". And the only way to fix that is to replace the 'faulty' tire. Total cost for this trip: $375.00

Next day. I go to Jason's and explain the problem. They put on the lift and tell me that at the moment, there's nothing they can do, because the INNER tie rod end on the drivers side needs to be replaced. After that is fixed, then they can check the alignment and see if there's a problem with the tires. Jason's can do the work, and it'll cost $260.00 for parts/labor for the inner tie rod end & an alignment.

I call John's and tell him what was told to me. John's basically says that the inner tie rod end is fine, and that Jason's is full of it. To prove it, John's is willing to replace the inner tie rod end, and do another alignment. I would only have to pay for the part(s).

I talk to the guys at Jason's and they look at the alignment report. The caster numbers aren't there. They say that it would have been next to impossible to do an alignment with a faulty inner tie rod end. They agree that there is a possibility that one of the tires has a radial pull. But they won't know until there is an alignment done, and they don't trust the alignment because of the inner tie rod end. Jason's DID say that if there was a problem with a tire - they would replace it at no charge.

By this time, I'm seeing red. I feel like both shops are pointing their finger at the other one. In fact, both shops did bad mouth the other at different points in my conversation.

Now, you could say that I wouldn't have had this problem if I would have stuck with one shop. I won't go into the reasons why I went with John's. It's not really important to the story.

I called John's back, and scheduled an appointment for Friday. I know how much an inner tie rod end costs, and I can guess how much they'll charge me... (probably $65-$75) I really don't want to spend another dime at EITHER shop...

My brother-in-law is a mechanic. I gave him the quick version. He said he'd look at it, but he's not free till next week.

Anyone have any suggestions on what I should do? The alignment is still off, and it still pulls to the right. Just enough to be a problem...

There has to be another alignment shop in Des Moines. You need a third opinion, and fast. The original shop left you with a obvious pull off center. Don't trust them at all. Second shop is not proven. Too much bickering to expect the truth.

Being nearly 900 miles away, I cannot comment on condition of tie rod ends. I have driven vehicles well over 100,000 and never, had to replace tie rod ends, I did have to do upper and lower ball joints on one side of my 03 F 250 diesel truck a few months ago. I suggested that we might as well do both sides and the mechanic said no, don't fix what is not broke, the other side might be good for a few thousand or 50,000, he did not know but they were tight so leave alone. I like a mechanic like that.

Now on the other hand I have had radial tires present the problem you mention. Car pulls to left, swap tires side to side and car pulls to right. Car was just aligned so everything there is in spec. It's the tires, and they do not have to be that old to give that problem.

If your vehicle did not pull until installation of the tires then radial ie tire pull is most likely the culprit. You do not need an alignment to determine tire pull and Jason's knows this, anyone in the tire and alignment business knows this. An alignment only needs to be performed to compensate for bent, worn parts or after the replacement of worn out parts. It sounds to me that Jason's wants to fleece some more money from you to cover the cost of warrantying the tire(s). John's is correct about replacing the outer tie rods prior to the alignment IF the outer tie rods have excessive play beyond the tolerances set by the vehicles manufacturer, most of the time a technician can view the movement of the tie rod to determine but they really should be measured to make an accurate determination. If an alignment is performed on worn out parts the it is a waste of time and money. It's also pretty unlikely that John's alignment tech would miss inner tie rods when they are already replacing outer tie rods.

Most major tire manufacturers will warranty a tire pull especially if it happens immediately http://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/tires/warrantyoptions.jsp If you scroll down the page there are also links to check out the warranty pages of other tire manufacturers. Assuming Jason's can get the tires warrantied from the manufacturer but it is a pia to do so, most will take it a write off vs cust satisfaction issue.

If you lose out with Jason's providing you some resolution that does not cost an arm and a leg considering what you have already spent the I would rotate the offending tires to the rear of the vehicle for the rest of their short lives.

Hope this helps

Funny, I got a similar story a few years back. Well, two of them...

1st -> Go for a simple alignment because it pulled, the wheel on the driver side was physically going left (out) when the left side was aligned with the car). The tie rod on the driver side is apparently kaput... Changed, aligned and $350 later, I'm off to see my parents 150km away. I'm 8km from the house, the tie rod on the passenger side give up on the freeway and the steering wheel shakes like no tomorrow left and right (going left 1 inch and right 1 inch very quickly). I control the vehicle and get to my parents. My dad has a garage, we pull the tie rod off, put a new one which cost $30 from memory. I was discouraged a bit knowing how much I was charged at the garage... According to the guy, the tie rod on the passenger side was fine... We did the alignment ourself which I don't think was perfect but it was very good.

2nd -> 2 years later, it starts to pull again on one side so I go to a small mechanic close to my parents to get the car aligned as I was in town. Guy starts with, tie rod is dead... I got out of there, went to get a replacement, changed it, got back to the garage before it closed and he aligned it for whatever cost it was...

Anyways, I know your pain about those. My best piece of advice would be to have your brother in law to look at it as he doesn't have any investments or intentions to make money with you, he will give it to you straight. One thing that a mechanic told me (I'm not one) was to lock your steering wheel so you can't move the wheels. If you have a loose trying to move the tyre left-right, the tie rod is about to give up. If you have a lose back and forth (pushing/pulling the tyre), the ball joint is about to give up. If it's rock solid, everything is fine.

Also, if you rub your hand on the thread of the tyre, it shouldn't be a sharp feeling if the tyre is aligned. If the tyre is misaligned, the treading will feel sharp in a direction. You will understand what I mean when you actually do this...

Again, no mechanic, but I like to play with the car here and there...

what yr/make/model/mileage of van? how many miles did you put on it between Jan and Aug?

Blue Raccoon said:

what yr/make/model/mileage of van? how many miles did you put on it between Jan and Aug?

Click to expand...

2005 Chrysler Town & Country. It has about 115,000 on it right now. I've probably put 6,000 on since January.

So, here's what I think I'm going to do.

#1 Buy the inner tie-rod end myself and bring it to John's. He'll install it, do another alignment (at no charge). The appointment is already set-up. He told me that I just had to buy the part and he'd install it and do an alignment. I'm NOT paying them any more money...parts or otherwise. He doesn't like that...then...well, there's recourse. I'll call the BBB and my Bank and we'll get this resolved another way.

#2 Once the tie-rod end is installed, and the alignment is done; we'll drive it. Based on what John is telling me, it should still pull to the right. We take it back to the shop, and they swap the tires. Then, it should pull to the left. Proof positive there's a tire problem.

#3 Take the van to Jason's with the (new) alignment information + everything else that's been done. Have them look at it...do whatever they need to do...they told me that if there is a faulty tire, that they will replace it. Of course, they have to ORDER the tires, since they don't normally stock this particular tire.

Here's the big question. Shouldn't tires be replaced in pairs? Or will it not make a difference, since they're relatively new? How far do I take it with Jason's? Both tires, or just be happy with the resolution that they offer-whatever that might be?

After this entire fiasco is over, the likely-hood that I'll go to either of those shops again is nil. And, since they're chain stores, I won't go to either of them...anywhere.

Maybe AAA can recommend someone local who DOESN'T stand to gain financially from you to take a look at the car?

Bring the police with you to both shops and tell them you're going to press fraud charges against them if they don't start shooting straight. Since that's not practical and the police likely would not accompany you to the shop, though, I'd say the third opinion option is the best way to go.

From here on in, though, get everything in writing: evaluations, estimates, work done, contracts, etc., and keep all of the other documents you have in writing as well. You may be able to recoup some of your losses in small claims court if you're able to show damages from incorrect and/or fraudulent advice that you relied on. However, you will never win in small claims unless you can show damages. These documents can help. The third opinion can also be someone that you can subpoena to testify if they are able to conclude that one or the other, or both, are screwing you over. And since he/she is also a mechanic, their testimony would be valuable.

Good luck!

joshgambit said:

So, here's what I think I'm going to do.

#1 Buy the inner tie-rod end myself and bring it to John's. He'll install it, do another alignment (at no charge). The appointment is already set-up. He told me that I just had to buy the part and he'd install it and do an alignment. I'm NOT paying them any more money...parts or otherwise. He doesn't like that...then...well, there's recourse. I'll call the BBB and my Bank and we'll get this resolved another way.

#2 Once the tie-rod end is installed, and the alignment is done; we'll drive it. Based on what John is telling me, it should still pull to the right. We take it back to the shop, and they swap the tires. Then, it should pull to the left. Proof positive there's a tire problem.

#3 Take the van to Jason's with the (new) alignment information + everything else that's been done. Have them look at it...do whatever they need to do...they told me that if there is a faulty tire, that they will replace it. Of course, they have to ORDER the tires, since they don't normally stock this particular tire.

Here's the big question. Shouldn't tires be replaced in pairs? Or will it not make a difference, since they're relatively new? How far do I take it with Jason's? Both tires, or just be happy with the resolution that they offer-whatever that might be?

After this entire fiasco is over, the likely-hood that I'll go to either of those shops again is nil. And, since they're chain stores, I won't go to either of them...anywhere.

Click to expand...

Whatever happens, you will possibly need to rotate the front tyres and move them to the back after the alignment...

They will probably purchase one tire, change one out then test drive it. If it still pulls, they'll take the other one off and put the originally removed one back on.

Sounds like a lot of BS from the tire shop to me.

joshgambit said:

So, here's what I think I'm going to do.

#1 Buy the inner tie-rod end myself and bring it to John's. He'll install it, do another alignment (at no charge). The appointment is already set-up. He told me that I just had to buy the part and he'd install it and do an alignment. I'm NOT paying them any more money...parts or otherwise. He doesn't like that...then...well, there's recourse. I'll call the BBB and my Bank and we'll get this resolved another way.

#2 Once the tie-rod end is installed, and the alignment is done; we'll drive it. Based on what John is telling me, it should still pull to the right. We take it back to the shop, and they swap the tires. Then, it should pull to the left. Proof positive there's a tire problem.

#3 Take the van to Jason's with the (new) alignment information + everything else that's been done. Have them look at it...do whatever they need to do...they told me that if there is a faulty tire, that they will replace it. Of course, they have to ORDER the tires, since they don't normally stock this particular tire.

Here's the big question. Shouldn't tires be replaced in pairs? Or will it not make a difference, since they're relatively new? How far do I take it with Jason's? Both tires, or just be happy with the resolution that they offer-whatever that might be?

After this entire fiasco is over, the likely-hood that I'll go to either of those shops again is nil. And, since they're chain stores, I won't go to either of them...anywhere.

Click to expand...

I would request them to replace both tires. I still would also advise you to have them cross rotate the front tires first, if it pulls right then it is a tire pull. You don't need a tie rod and alignment to tell you that. Once you have that sorted out then on to the inner tie rod by way of a third opinion, just take it to another shop for an alignment because you just got new tires and see what they say.

Just my 2 cents.

the police aren't going to follow you around.. fraud? that would be tough to prove. since you have bounced between two places and waited 8 months and 6k miles. think your best bet at this point if these are corp chains is to work your way up to a regional manager or the home office and calmly describe the situation. Being a hard case won't get you anywhere. I would have your BIL or a 3rd unrelated party tell you exactly what the van needs or doesn't need to get it aligned and going straight down the road. Kind of hard to believe if they did front end work they wouldn't have also hit you for the tie rod end. are the front tires wearing even? does it still pull the same direction after you rotated the tires? at this point ask around for a good local mechanic that friends have used and would use again and stay away from the chains.

If you have a full size spare swap the suspect tire with it and see if it still pulls. If you have a small spare use one of the rear tires. Hopefully this will give you a better understanding of what the problem might be.

So here's the latest. I went to an auto parts store and purchased an inner tie rod end for $20.00. I (literally) crossed the street to John's and he installed it. He did another alignment & drove it. It (still) pulled to the right. He swapped the front tires, and it pulled to the left. I paid nothing for him to do this. His point was that the inner tie rod end was within spec and while there was some play in it, it was (in his opinion) negligible. He didn't want to sell a part that he felt was unnecessary.

I drove it to Jason's. I needed to wait, but they were willing to look at it, drive it, and swap the tires & drive it again to see if there was a problem. Their alignment guy was going to do all of this. I started talking to the manager about this. I showed him both alignment reports (and they were nearly identical). I asked him how an inner tie rod end could cause my van to pull - THEN to pull the other way when the tires are switched. He said, "It won't." And, he also said that he has little doubt that there IS a problem with a tire. But, his point was this:
He couldn't warranty a tire with a part that was (in his opinion) faulty. It was also his opinion that the inner should have been replaced when the outers were done. ESPECIALLY when it would have been zero extra labor AND there was (even minor) slop in the inner. He told me that he was looking out for me - for the future. He didn't want me to have a tire with uneven wear because of a simple fix. Plus, it's his opinion that John's was likely intentionally overlooking the inner tie rod end. That way, when it needs to be replaced, I have to pay for labor again.

Jason's is replacing a tire under warranty. I asked about uneven wear due to a brand new tire, and one with 8 months of wear on it. He said that we're probably talking about 1/32 of an inch, and that he'll measure the fronts to make sure it's not too bad. They need to order the tire in, so it won't be until Tuesday when I can have it replaced. But, hopefully it will all be finished when it is.

Thanks to everyone who helped me out and gave me advice. It also helped just being able to write this out and vent. I also have learned a few valuable lessons. #1 - If there are mis-communications, that will cause problems. #2 - Take your vehicle to someone you trust (which I should have done in the first place). #3 - Never eat Pop-Rocks and drink Pepsi together...

Ok as a automotive tech at a dealer people think that we are thieves and try to screw people . If your car was brought to us it would have been fixed right the first visit . Radial pull happens with cheap tires or manufucting error. As for tie rods if there's play or ball joints they need replacing . Sorry for your trouble