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12k troubles

I have been trying to master the art of honing for a while, and though I've come up with a nice edge (some tug, irritation during shave, but 10 minutes after it's comfortable and close), I still haven't gotten a really great, smooth, truly sharp blade yet (with no tug and little to no irritation during the shave). I am equipped with a Dovo Ebenholtz 5/8 stainless steel blade, Norton 4/8k and a Chinese 12k. A combination I'm sure you're all used to seeing among those new to straight razor sharpening.

The specific issue at the moment is this:

It's odd, I seem to get better results from the 8k than I do from the 12k. It's almost as though the 12k is dulling the blade rather than refining it. I feel this in the shave. I don't even bother with finger pad/finger nail, arm hair tests... I'm not familiar enough with those sensations to know the difference. So when I try a new variable in my sharpening, I then shave to see if it has worked. If it hasn't, I try something different before the next shave. Progress is a little slow, I suppose. But at least I know what I'm dealing with.

Now, I am aware that some people simply prefer the edge they get off of an 8k stone rather than a 12k, but I don't think I'm one of those people. Here's why. When I shave off the 8k, it doesn't tug and pull as much as when I shave off the 12k, but I can still feel irritation caused by it just not being sharp enough. Whereas when I shave off the 12k, there is a fair bit of tugging and pulling along with it also, of course, not being sharp enough.

This is what leads me to believe there is something wrong with the 12k hone and not necessarily my technique and not me having a preference for an 8k edge.

The only thing I can think of that I have done differently with the Chinese stone versus the Norton is when I flattened it (on wet/dry sandpaper on oven door glass, which I heard is nice and flat/true due to being tempered), I used 320 grit for the bulk of the job, then 1000 grit to finish it. On the 8k I never used the 1000 grit, only 320. And my oven is only about a year old so there's very little likelihood it's warped, right? The stone was really suctioning onto it so that's a good sign.

Can you give me any suggestions as to what might be going on here?
Does your technique differ from the 8k stone to the 12k stone? I tend to be even lighter on the 12k, but any other significant difference?
Should I at least try flattening the 12k on 320 grit just to eliminate that variable? I do have some left.

Thanks very much for any input.
 
The problem is that the "12k" is a natural stone, and no two "12k's" seems to be alike. Now how are you using your chinese stone? Describe how you use it.
If it's already flat , there's no need to go at it with the 320 again.But you could polish it with the 4k and 8k sides of your Norton.
I have C12K's and they are quite different, I get great smooth and sharp edges off one of them.
 
I'm inclined to believe that it's your technique. Your Chinese natural stone should not dull the edge. It would also help if you used some of the standard tests to evaluate your results.

There should also be no tugging. Do you have other razors to compare your results to? If so, do you notice tugging? Note that poor lather and preparation (or shaving technique) also can lead to tugging with even the sharpest of edges.
 
Are you doing enough strokes on the 12k stone? i will say i dont use mine that often, the coti is my stone of the moment, but i did put a razor through my synthetics this week and finished with the 12k, i got it passing the hht, but i do now realise its quite a slow finisher. Also, as mentioned, it is a usefull tool to learn the tests, it helps a great deal, and i mentioned, the razor i just finished on the 12k passed the hht, so i knew where i was!
 
I am still lapping my Chinese stone at 100 grit, but took it for a test run last night. It produced an edge that was quite sharp (passed the HHT without a problem [once it was stropped that is]) and harsh. Once it's flat, I will try again at 320 grit and see if it makes a difference. Ultimately, I would like to have two hones on one stone by having two different finishes. You could try the same thing. Lap the opposite side, and try taking it to a different grit level and see if you like the results better.
 

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
When you move off the 8000 to the c12k do you see further polishing of the edge? Stays the same? Did you take the corners off the c12k after you lapped it? One bad stroke on the edge and you dull the blade. Also how much pressure are you applying to the blade on the stone? Is your bevel nice and even? Does it pop arm and leg hairs?
 
Blix - I've tried pyramids between the 8k and 12k, from small ones like 7/7, 5/5, 3/5 1/5 to bigger ones like 20/20, 15/20, 10/20, 5/20, 1/20. I've also tried just counting strokes. From low numbers to large... 15 on 8k then 30 on 12k, all the way to ridiculously large ones like 50 on the 8k then FIVE HUNDRED on the 12k... both with similar results actually... the ridiculous amount more didn't really change much, perhaps slightly better with the 500 though. I've tried all combinations/permutations of strokes. the 12k just feels like a curse.

danjared - like I mentioned in the original post, there is very little tugging occuring at the 8k level... logically, this eliminates my technique as a factor, as well as lather and prep since I shave pretty much the same way each time. "No tug on 8k = technique/lather/prep is fine", "tug on 12k = X" is my question... solve for X! Please help me, I've never been good at math ;).

taffy - I wish it were that simple. I did hear that it was slow so I've tried anywhere from 10 all the way to over 500 strokes (don't say I didn't do my fair share of experimenting before coming here!). If it needs more than that, someone should have told me before I bought this stone!! haha also, the hht is great but clearly I've never gotten a razor to that point before... so it doesn't differentiate anything for me as every time I try it doesn't work so there's no scale telling me if I've improved from "dull" to "less dull, but still not passing hht, so keep doing what you're doing a little longer". Know what I mean?

papafish - yeah, I might just do that... but the other side pretty far off flat still, I started lapping it and then continued for several years on end but it's still not flat and never will be. So it looks like this now: (| ... exaggerated of course but you get the idea... the edges are damn hard to get to.

kentos - yes. no. yes. very little. yes. "pop"?... It shaves arm and leg hair great! Skin feels smooth as silk, but my arms and legs don't have much feeling left in them after what they've been through in rugby haha so it's not much indication really... except that hair CAN be removed.
 

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
Pop meaning when you skim the razor over the skin the hairs seem to pop when cut. If you need to scrape at the hairs to cut the bevel could use more work on the coarser hones. One theory I have is that coming off a coarser stone the microscopic scratches on the bevel catch on the hairs and cut them. When you polish the scratches away on a finisher like the 12k you are left with a shiny, yet less than keen edge that won't cut hairs nicely. Others claim there is a saw toothed edge coming off the coarser stone which cuts hair, but the 12k polishes them down, and if the bevel isn't good, no cutting...

So just from rereading you original post, I would suggest dulling the blade on a glass so it doesnt cut arm hair, and restarting on the bevel on the 4000 until the hairs on your leg fall away just by you waving the razor over the hair like a magic wand( just kidding- the hairs should just fall away without any pressure against your skin) Then move up to your 8000, then 12000, then strop maybe 50 laps and see.

Some people are vehemently against "glassing" a blade, but unless you start honing from rock bottom, meaning a blade that will not cut hair, how do you really know if your bevel was set?
 
Hey, Steve.

I started w/ the same setup. The words from others seem very well aimed to me. My 12k gives sharp, but not smooth. Alot of leather stropping will help, but some crox stropping would be better. I've gone to the Nani 12k and like it ALOT better. Getting better results from 8k is significant. I've had the same thing happen. In my case - it was purely the quality of my stroke, 'cause the edges of the stone were adequately chamfered. The very light touch in finishing did NOT come easily to me. Minor, barely perceptible movements would lift the spine from the stone, and there goes all the hard work. I recently changed my stroke to a variation of the 'pigtail stroke', shown in Glen's (gssixgun) videos. Its also shown on Sham's new website razorandstone.com Certainly, there's some getting used to the stroke, but I has helped ensure that the forward stroke begins flat, and any spine lift when starting the backstroke portion before going forward - will damage the edge less. 'Works well for me. It may or may not for others.
Best of luck w/ your progress.
 
HOLD THE PRESSES!
When I had sharpened my razor (as seen above) I had actually sharpened up two... One was a 6/8 hollow ground, the other a 5/8 near wedge. The wedge was sharpened up first, and the hollow ground second. I felt like I spent a good amount more time and care on sharpening the hollow ground, so naturally that was the one I shaved with first! It was sharp, but harsh (removing hair without a problem, but oh, the burn!). I shaved with the wedge this morning, just to see if there was a difference, and it was MUCH better. Not harsh at all! I don't know yet if the difference is in the grind, or if it was something I did during honing (or stropping for that matter), but this is the second time the wedge has taken a good edge off this stone (because I naturally used the stone before making sure it was flat!). I will be continuing to play around with the stone, but thought I should throw this one out there.
 
Thanks for all the input guys. I managed to get a better edge, but still a little tug and pull. Maybe I need to spend some more time on the 4k and reset the bevel like Kentos said. Perhaps I'm trying to polish an edge that isn't really proper to begin with.
 
Thanks for all the input guys. I managed to get a better edge, but still a little tug and pull. Maybe I need to spend some more time on the 4k and reset the bevel like Kentos said. Perhaps I'm trying to polish an edge that isn't really proper to begin with.

This is where I would start. A proper bevel is crucial no matter the stone(s) used. I had the same set up as you do and once I got to where my bevel was constantly good all the rest fell in place. I also made a slurry on the C12K doing 50 laps with slurry then at least another 50 (some times more) laps on just water.
 

Alacrity59

Wanting for wisdom
HOLD THE PRESSES!
When I had sharpened my razor (as seen above) I had actually sharpened up two... One was a 6/8 hollow ground, the other a 5/8 near wedge. The wedge was sharpened up first, and the hollow ground second. I felt like I spent a good amount more time and care on sharpening the hollow ground, so naturally that was the one I shaved with first! It was sharp, but harsh (removing hair without a problem, but oh, the burn!). I shaved with the wedge this morning, just to see if there was a difference, and it was MUCH better. Not harsh at all! I don't know yet if the difference is in the grind, or if it was something I did during honing (or stropping for that matter), but this is the second time the wedge has taken a good edge off this stone (because I naturally used the stone before making sure it was flat!). I will be continuing to play around with the stone, but thought I should throw this one out there.

Having adapted to shaving with a dull blade could it be that you were using too much pressure and too high a blade angle with your first sharp shave? I've done this. Also I find stropping twice as much as normal helps . . . even so the fist day after sharpening is never as smooth . . . so I take it easy with just two passes.
 
Having adapted to shaving with a dull blade could it be that you were using too much pressure and too high a blade angle with your first sharp shave? I've done this. Also I find stropping twice as much as normal helps . . . even so the fist day after sharpening is never as smooth . . . so I take it easy with just two passes.

I always keep my razors very sharp (unless I am trying something new intentionally). The day before I had an excellent sharp shave off the same razor, but finished on a Spyderco Ultra Fine and CrOx. It was not only sharper, but smoother also. I am going to be trying some more things on this one to figure out how to get a better edge from it.
 

Alacrity59

Wanting for wisdom
So your razor goes from passing the HHT test one day to not passing the HHT test after using the C12K? Bummer.
 

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
I remember spending ages honing, them killing the edge on the strop... Been there done that.
 
So your razor goes from passing the HHT test one day to not passing the HHT test after using the C12K? Bummer.

Oh no, it passed HHT2 off the stone and HHT3 stropped. It wasn't that it was dull, just very harsh on my face, like it needed more stropping (it got plenty!). A bit of time on CrOx would do the trick, but what would that teach me? I plan on figuring out the hone, and seeing what I can learn in the process. It could be that for this stone I have to incorporate some linen (which I don't have) or something like it before stropping the first time to help tame the edge. All in good time!
 
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