Setting the bevel (advice requested)

Hello,
By all accounts I am a newbie at honing. That said, I've succesfully honed around 20 razors for my personal use and have been quite pleased with the results on many of them. For some reason, however, I occasionally find a challenging razor that I can't seem to set the bevel on properly. I'm dealing with a particularly annoying razor at the moment and was hoping I might be able to get advice. "A newbie's guide to setting the bevel" if you will.

Any advice or pointers you guys can share would be appreciate?

For background, I'm starting with a DMT 1200 and have tried circle, rolling x and straight strokes.

Thanks in advance!

What kind of razor is it? Smiley, wedge, warped, etc? I sometimes use the sharpie on the edge and make a few passes on the rock and see where the ink has and hasn't been removed...then you know where the bevel isn't getting set. If it's warped you might need some tinkering to get it right...ie. Tape on toe only, honing on very thin hones, many layers of tape, etc.

Hollow ground with a bit of a frown. Haven't used a marker on this one yet. I'll try that tonight though. It doesnt appear to be warped based on the way the water moves off the stone.

Ah, you need to hone out that frown. Some say to bread knife, some just hone on a rough stone with tape to protect the spine. I just tape up the spine, apply mild pressure to toe and heel, and rub until the edge is nice and straight. If the blade isnt warped the toe and heel should be touching while the center should be floating above the hone anyways(caveat: I can have the whole blade touch the hone at the same time) I have read that on an otherwise straight razor the frown is caused by the natural x stroke over time since the middle of the blade gets the most contact with the hone.

Thanks for starting this thread David, this is one I will be following closely. I too have a full hollow with a frown and although I have only honed 2 or 3 razors up until now, I cannot seem to keep away from the challenging ones.

Question:what is bread knifeing?

Bread knifing is where you just take the blade and just run it across a course stone like you are trying to cut a slice of bread off a loaf.

Probably a last resort.

Obie, welcome to the insanity. I'm just shy of 175 blade count, and can promise you - you'll run into blades that just make you nuts. Like the other said - deal w/ the frown first. Before you 'breadknife', check Glenn's posts/method. He holds the spine off the stone at about a 45 deg. angle, rather than a 90 deg. 'Makes it easier to restore the new angle. Is this a blade you've used power tools to shine? If so - that's given me unpredictable results with honing. I'm tending more towards hand sanding now.

After the frown is gone, get comfy. Setting the bevel now will take some time and work. A lower grit stone would be better. I use the dmt 325. I don't do an entire bevel set on that grit, but just get some drag along the edge over a wet thumnail, then go to a 1200 plate or stone - whatever you use for normal bevel setting.

I have one nice blade that continues to defy the stones. You'll run into them. Its part of the insanity.

Best of luck.

Thanks. Not planning on applying the breadknife aproach any time soon. I spent about 40 minutes on it last night (which I feel may be excessive), but I think it's close. I did polish it with a dremel, but I tried to stay off the edge as best I could. I've never had a problem with this in the past. Interesting point to consider though. Does anyone else run into this?


Does it ever make sense to set the initial bevel with a layer or two of tape and then remove? Not looking to get into the whole tape vs. not debate, just curious if this would be an acceptable approach for stubborn razors to get the initial bevel set or is it once you tape you have to stay with it until finish?

This really intrigues me. I have just purchased a Peters Brothers 6/8 square point. It is in good enough shape to hone and shave with but my skills are none too good with it so far. Added is the fact I am newb-ish to cutthroats and you invariably wind up asking yourself if the razor is actually as dull as you think or is a combination of that and lack of shaving skill. So far I have run it over my DMT 8C(325 grit) about thirty complete laps and then a about twice that many on the DMT 8EE(8000 grit). I really do not fear the "over honing" bugaboo we worry about some times. The edge is far from brittle or close to folding over. It is just not sharp enough. I suspect I need to work on the bevel and it really behooves me to obtain a 1.2k DMT plate to set a good bevel. I need a good 4k stone in between it and the DMT 8k as well. I have CrOx paste now and will use it to refine the edge after that. Like some, I was really tempted to just send it out but sooner or later you have to do this for yourself anyway so it's time to get it done.

Regards, Todd

rawface said:

Obie, welcome to the insanity. I'm just shy of 175 blade count, and can promise you - you'll run into blades that just make you nuts. Like the other said - deal w/ the frown first. Before you 'breadknife', check Glenn's posts/method. He holds the spine off the stone at about a 45 deg. angle, rather than a 90 deg. 'Makes it easier to restore the new angle. Is this a blade you've used power tools to shine? If so - that's given me unpredictable results with honing. I'm tending more towards hand sanding now.

After the frown is gone, get comfy. Setting the bevel now will take some time and work. A lower grit stone would be better. I use the dmt 325. I don't do an entire bevel set on that grit, but just get some drag along the edge over a wet thumnail, then go to a 1200 plate or stone - whatever you use for normal bevel setting.

I have one nice blade that continues to defy the stones. You'll run into them. Its part of the insanity.

Best of luck.

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I hope it is all right if I cut into the thread like this. I have a razor with a frown and last night I had at it breadknifeing on a DMT 220. It did not seem to do the slightest bit of difference to the edge except it took a lot of material of the spine. I cannot wait to try the strokes at 45 degrees. Thanks for posting!

I remove frowns by holding at roughly a 45 degree angle as well and apply pressure with circles, x's, whatever till the edge is straight. I then reduce the angle to about 15 degrees or so for awhile before going to spine directly contacting the hone. This is an immense time saver and IMHO breadknifing at a 90 degree angle should never be done. It will only cause you more work. If you did breadknife the razor I would suggest the above progression as well (45 to ~15 to spine touching) as it will make the work much easier than going from breadknifing to normal honing.

Gustav said:

I hope it is all right if I cut into the thread like this. I have a razor with a frown and last night I had at it breadknifeing on a DMT 220. It did not seem to do the slightest bit of difference to the edge except it took a lot of material of the spine. I cannot wait to try the strokes at 45 degrees. Thanks for posting!

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Gustav, you need to hold the razor like a bread knife, and rub the very edge of the blade on the hone like you are cutting a tomato, or a piece of bread, etc. The spine should not be touching the hone at all...the blade is perpendicular, at 90 degrees to the hone.

Kentos said:

Gustav, you need to hold the razor like a bread knife, and rub the very edge of the blade on the hone like you are cutting a tomato, or a piece of bread, etc. The spine should not be touching the hone at all...the blade is perpendicular, at 90 degrees to the hone.

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Oh all right I understand what you mean now. I also understand why that is the very last resort.

SUCESS! So I finally got the bevel correct last night and shaved with it this morning. Not proud of how long it took to get the bevel right on it, but it shaved great this morning.

Thanks!

Obiwan said:

SUCESS! So I finally got the bevel correct last night and shaved with it this morning. Not proud of how long it took to get the bevel right on it, but it shaved great this morning.

Thanks!

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So how did you solve the problem in the end?

Very slight angle, light pressure, rotated between circles and rolling x.

I think rolling x strokes maybe the best tool in your arsenal...especially after checking all my razors most of them don't lie flat on the hone.