Trumper's GFT problem

[wolfemi1]

Hey all,

I am a relative newbie at wetshaving (hence the post count ), but generally I can get a cream/water ratio right, and whip up a fine batch of lather. This is the case with my tub of new Taylor's Rose. However, I also have a tube of Trumper's GFT cream (my wife likes the smell ) with which I just can't get a good moist shave; the lather leaves my face dry, and the razor doesn't 'glide' across my skin like with the Taylor's.

My question is, am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with the GFT? If the GFT is behaving as normal (which I suspect, since it reminds me of the C&E Sienna I tried and didn't like), can anyone comment as to whether the rest of the Trumper's line is like that? If it is, I may just have to forsake the entire line and stick with Taylor, an odd thought given Trumper's reputation.

[ada8356]

Well it's hard to know for sure what the culprit might be... I have one tub of Trumpers and it works just fine.

To start with I would try more cream and see where that gets you.

[Etalex]

Trumper's GFT in not the most moisturizing cream, but it is certainly not representative of the whole Trumper's line. If you want loads of moisture and razor glide, try the Coconut oil cream. It does not smell like GFT, however. It is a bit unfortunate that two of the nicest smelling creams, C&E Sienna and GFT, are also some of the least moisturizing. There is only one thing to do: Improve your technique to the point where the cushioning/moisturizing properties of creams don't matter anymore.

Good luck,
Alex

[moses]

Trumper's GFT in not the most moisturizing cream, but it is certainly not representative of the whole Trumper's line. If you want loads of moisture and razor glide, try the Coconut oil cream. It does not smell like GFT, however. It is a bit unfortunate that two of the nicest smelling creams, C&E Sienna and GFT, are also some of the least moisturizing. There is only one thing to do: Improve your technique to the point where the cushioning/moisturizing properties of creams don't matter anymore.

Alex,

I can't altogether agree. I do not find either C&E or the GFT any less moisturizing than your average English cream. Now, the Coconut be be extra moisturizing. That seems to be the consensus, but it is one of the very few Trumpers I have not tried.

And, in the case of the GFT, you are definitely right that with a little work on technique, and playing with the mix, our friend should be able to get a great shave out of it.

On the other hand, I do not believe there is any such thing as improving your technique to the point that moisturizing and cushioning do not matter. Certainly, with good technique, you can get to the point of getting a good shave, no matter how little cushion your mix has. But some of the most experienced shavers prefer highly cushioning creams like Coates.

And as for moisturizing, I do not see what that has to do with technique. It is just a matter of how much it keeps your skin from drying out. I suppose if you technique is really bad, and you scrape up your face a lot, it will dry out more. But shaving will dry it out some regardless, so moisturizing is never irrelevant to anyone. Although a lack in the shaving cream, I honestly do not think is that important, since you can always make up for it with your aftershave. Just that a cream or soap that does not dry you out makes it easier to get away with just an alcohol based splash, which I do prefer.

-Mo

[moses]

Wolfemi,

I guess I should answer your initial question a little more directly. My experience is that Trumper is just a touch less fail safe than Taylors. But you should be able to get a good result from it. Aaron is dead on - try a little more cream. Add water gradually. Play around with it a bit, and you should be able to get a good result. I have the GFT, and it works fine for me. I don't really use it, as a rule, because while I enjoy the scent, it is a bit mild, so I can't really enjoy it while using it.

Oh, and if you like GFT, you might try Harris Arlington. Similar, although not the same. Very similar citrus component, but where GFT has a little spice, Arlington is instead kind of green/outdoors combined with the citrus. And there is an entire line of cream, soap, aftershave splash, aftershave balm, and cologne, all with the same wonderful scent.

-Mo

[boboakalfb]

I guess I should answer your initial question a little more directly. My experience is that Trumper is just a touch less fail safe than Taylors. But you should be able to get a good result from it. Aaron is dead on - try a little more cream. Add water gradually. Play around with it a bit, and you should be able to get a good result.

I am in agreement with Mo and Aaron. I believe your problem is with the water/cream ratio...not the cream itself. It won't be the most moisturizing of creams, but that doesn't mean it won't provide a good shave.

[Xert]

Hey all,

I am a relative newbie at wetshaving (hence the post count ), but generally I can get a cream/water ratio right, and whip up a fine batch of lather. This is the case with my tub of new Taylor's Rose. However, I also have a tube of Trumper's GFT cream (my wife likes the smell ) with which I just can't get a good moist shave; the lather leaves my face dry, and the razor doesn't 'glide' across my skin like with the Taylor's.

My question is, am I doing something wrong, or is there a problem with the GFT? If the GFT is behaving as normal (which I suspect, since it reminds me of the C&E Sienna I tried and didn't like), can anyone comment as to whether the rest of the Trumper's line is like that? If it is, I may just have to forsake the entire line and stick with Taylor, an odd thought given Trumper's reputation.

I know exactly what you mean, for I had the same difficulty when I first went from Taylor's to Trumper's. Mo's dead on: Trumper's is a little trickier than Taylor's with the water:cream ratio, so you have to play with it a bit more. Try starting with more cream, as Aaron suggested, and then slowly adding splashes of water...It's been a while since I used Taylor's, but if I remember correctly a good Trumper lather tends to be a bit more dense.

[Etalex]

Alex,

I can't altogether agree. I do not find either C&E or the GFT any less moisturizing than your average English cream. Now, the Coconut be be extra moisturizing. That seems to be the consensus, but it is one of the very few Trumpers I have not tried.

And, in the case of the GFT, you are definitely right that with a little work on technique, and playing with the mix, our friend should be able to get a great shave out of it.

On the other hand, I do not believe there is any such thing as improving your technique to the point that moisturizing and cushioning do not matter. Certainly, with good technique, you can get to the point of getting a good shave, no matter how little cushion your mix has. But some of the most experienced shavers prefer highly cushioning creams like Coates.

And as for moisturizing, I do not see what that has to do with technique. It is just a matter of how much it keeps your skin from drying out. I suppose if you technique is really bad, and you scrape up your face a lot, it will dry out more. But shaving will dry it out some regardless, so moisturizing is never irrelevant to anyone. Although a lack in the shaving cream, I honestly do not think is that important, since you can always make up for it with your aftershave. Just that a cream or soap that does not dry you out makes it easier to get away with just an alcohol based splash, which I do prefer.

-Mo

Hi Mo,

Well, so far we don't have any scientific way of measuring how moisturizing a cream is, so it is all personal opinion. In my opinion all the C&E creams, except the Almond oil, are among the least moisturizing creams I've used. Note that here I'm not comparing them to "average English creams", but to all creams I've tried, like Proraso, Avocado, Musgo Real, etc. It also seems to be generally agreed that cologne scented creams (like C&E Sienna) tend to be less moisturizing, so this should not be a surprise.

With regard to improving technique to the point that moisturizing and cushioning do not matter, my statement did not exclude the fact that even skilled shavers like to use moisturizing/cushioning creams. All I was saying was that with the right technique, one does not need to rely on those properties of the cream.

As for your last paragraph, I honestly do not see any difference between moisturizing and cushioning properties of a cream. For me, these two properties have the same origin, namely oils or high glycerine content in the cream, and so they are just two names for the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and if so, let me know if there exists a cream which is moisturizing and not cushioning, or cushioning and not moisturizing. It would be nice if we could analyze our terminology a bit

Alex

[wolfemi1]

Wow, thanks everyone for all your input!

I just wanted to maybe clear some of my experience up. I tried the GFT the first time, and thought I didn't put enough cream in (I was on guard for the large bubbles that are usually symptomatic of this). It didn't work, so for the second try I used about twice what I did the first time, and slowly splashed water in about 1/4 teaspoon at a time (tiny bit). It lathered very well, but the shave wasn't smooth like I would want.

For illustration, this is what I mean: when I had already passed the razor over an area, that part was immediately dry, and I couldn't even rest the razor dome on that part without it sticking to my skin and causing the razor to skip. The lather itself was fine while I was using it. By contrast, using Proraso, Nancy Boy, King of Shaves, and Taylor's Rose (but NOT C&E Sienna), my skin was still slightly slick in all the areas I had already shaved, not likely enough for a full pass but enough to keep me shaving well at the margins of the lather, when the razor head had to rest on already-shaved skin to put the blade against the unshorn hairs.

From what I've been reading, it sounds like I may have to give cologne-scented creams a pass and work with the florals. Maybe I should just buy the GFT cologne and use whatever floral cream I darn well feel like!

And maybe, just maybe, I can sweet-talk Charles at QED into letting me return the GFT tube in exchange for a nice tub of Taylor's Avocado....

[moses]

For illustration, this is what I mean: when I had already passed the razor over an area, that part was immediately dry, and I couldn't even rest the razor dome on that part without it sticking to my skin and causing the razor to skip. The lather itself was fine while I was using it. By contrast, using Proraso, Nancy Boy, King of Shaves, and Taylor's Rose (but NOT C&E Sienna), my skin was still slightly slick in all the areas I had already shaved, not likely enough for a full pass but enough to keep me shaving well at the margins of the lather, when the razor head had to rest on already-shaved skin to put the blade against the unshorn hairs.

Wolf,

I actually know exactly what you mean. I had read trouble with this for a few weeks early one. The bloody razor would just seem to stick to my face, basically. Especially hitting the same area even at all. It really does not happen anymore. I really wish I knew why, but I don't.

That said, I was sufficiently intrigued by this to do an experiment. I will post separatly, in response to Alex, and explain a little more what I mean by certain terms.

I mixed up a lather with GFT, lathered my forearm, and shaved a small area below my wrist. The first pass was fine. I did notice I could feel the blade pretty much. Meaning, in my terms, a "faster" or less cushioning lather. But then, on passing the blade over the same area, rinsing the blade between, and also rubbing the shaved area with a finger, there was not much of a slippery residue left behind. No real sticking of the blade or razor head, but not as smooth as I like either.

Not satisfied, I proceded to repeat a number of times, with other products. Most importantly Trumper Sandalwood, but also Coates Tea Tree, Taylor St. James, Olivia Oakmoss for a very different twist, and then again with GFT and Trumper Sandalwood.

Much to my surprise, the GFT provided the least slipperiness. And the least cushion. I could feel the blade the most on the first pass, and the repeat passes were the least smooth. And, I could feel a little grabbing when rubbing my finger after a couple of passes. This bothers me.

There should not be a difference between the two flavors of Trumper, but I detected one. It is just to fragrances, both of which would be best considered a cologne scent. The fact that the GFT does come in a different tube I tought just meaningless packaging, but now a wonder. Of course, there has also been suggestion that GFT creams overall have changed a little recently, and the Sandalwood tube I have is well over a year old, while the GFT is nearly new.

This is just one persons impression. There could be variables in how I mixed the lather. As a scientist, I feel compelled to point out this is virtually meaningless. BUT, I still distinctly feel that the Sandalwood was noticeably more cushioning, and more slippery. Much closer to the Coates.

Although it is less relevant, I might as well comment on what else I noticed. The Coates was the most cushioning. The Trumper Sandalwood was close behind, closely followed by the Taylor. The Olivia and GFT were the least cushioning.

As for slipperiness, the Olivia won hands down. Coates and Taylor pretty close together next, with Trumper Sandalwood not far below. GFT was noticeably less, especially on repeat passes, and the only one where I could really feel my finger sticking a little when I rubbed it after three passes.

Of course, on moisturizing, I can't comment. That is harder to judge, rendered impossible to compare since I used them all in the same place in a short time, and besides, it was my arm, which is a lot less prone to dryness than my face.

-Mo

[moses]

Alex,

In response to your post, I think I should define a little more of what I mean by a few terms.

Cushion: The extent to which a lather provides a protective barrier between your face and the blade. Judged by the degree to which you feel the blade against your skin. Lack of it can lead to overshaving, if you aren't careful with your technique. Closely tied to slip, or slipperiness.

Slip, or Slipperiness: The degree to which the lather reduces friction as the blade/razor head moves over your face. Particularly slippery products tend to leaves a residue that allows the razor blade to slide easily even on repeated passes without relathering. A lack leads to all kinds of irritation, because the blade kind of scraps and catches. Closely tied to Cushion.

Lubrication: The combination of both of the above. To understand the difference, consider oils. WD-40 or liquid wrench are extremely slippery. Spray on a piece of metal and run your finger over it, it will be slippery as anything. But no cushion to speak of. You will feel every little defect. On the other hand, 80 weight gear oil is extremely cushioning. Your finger won't slide as easily, although it will be very smooth, and there will be a much more noticeable barrier between your finger and the metal. This is why it is used on gears - prevents wear by putting a barrier between them. Molasses, finally, will provide a lot of cushion, but not so much slipperiness. Highly lubricating lather makes it easier to shave and leave your face in good shape. A lot of cushion, though, may make it a little harder to shave as close, in as few passes.

Moisturization: How moisturized and conditioned your face feels afterward, assuming the same aftershave treatment, and excluding the effects of irritation. Basically, how much does the lather take the place of your aftershave balm. Although I agree with Alex that often the same ingredients are responsible for this, as for both elements of lubrication, it is NOT the same thing.

Here are some examples.

QED is very slippery, but not particularly cushioning. In my experience, it is very moisturizing. The aloe and glycerin really condition the skin, but it is still a very fast, not that cushioning lather. Love it though, because it gives a wonderfully close shave.

Coates lubricates like anything. Slippery AND cushioning. Very. Both. Also pretty moisturizing, but not as much as QED, or especially Honeybee.

Honeybee soap is the slipperiest product I have ever used. More cushioning than QED, but not as much so as Coates, or Harris (soap or cream). Also the most moisturizing product I have used, except maybe Olivia.

Taylor. Very cushioning, but not as much so as Coates. Likewise pretty darn slippery, although less than any of the above. Not especially moisturizing, although not drying either. (Except Avocado).

I could give more examples, but that seems enough to cover a fair number of bases.

-Mo

[moses]

Wof,
Again, maybe I should address your concerns a little more directly. As you can see above, I realized that maybe GFT is a little off, to my surprise. I have not had that experience with Sienna, though. Although I may have to dig it out for another go.

Ultimately, though, use the products that work for you. Play around, and try to make it work, but if it just isn't, there is a time to move along and just use something that does. Keep it around though, and give it another go in a couple months. Sometimes things surprise you. I did not get what was so great about Tabac the first couple of times. Back shelved it for a couple of months, and was some kind of surprised the next time I pulled it out.

As for cologne scented v. floral, I 100% do not buy that there is ANY difference as a general matter, especially with these creams. There are some exceptions, but they are not really florals. Like Trumper Coconut, Taylor Avocado, C&E Almond, and Coates Tea Tree (and maybe Lavender as well). These are scents where there is a significant amount of oils of the named product that seem to actually make for a different and improved shave. But between Taylor Rose and Taylor St. James? No. Just different fragrances. Different fragrance oils. But both are primarily synthetic fragrance oils, not essential oils, and even if they were essential oils, there would not be enough to make any noticeable difference in lubrication. There is no reason to think that the rose scented oils are going to produce a different result than the citrus and woody ones in St. James.

So, honestly, I would not generally go for floral over cologne. I would go for scents you like, in brands that work for you. Normally you trouble with GFT would make me suggest shying away from Trumper - maybe it doesn't like your water. My experiment though, makes me think you might do alright with any of the other scents.

If you like GFT, I would say get the cologne, and go for really any shaving cream, but especially a Lime one. T&H, or Castle Forbes would probably both work for you, and would coordinate pretty well with GFT. Or, best of all in my mind, would be Harris Arlington, in cream or soap.

Good luck,

-Mo

[wolfemi1]

Moses, wow, thanks! Great verification process, and though it is anecdotal i think it's very good evidence that something is up.

Again, I don't think that the GFT gave me a really BAD shave, necessarily, just not a very good one, and I don't think I'll be up for giving too many more chances with a perfectly good vat of Taylor's Rose sitting next to it in the cabinet. I will, however, try out the coconut and rose Trumper samples I just got and see how they work.

My big problem is, though, that there isn't any place remotely close to me that sells any of these, and so all purchases must be made sight-unseen and untested. I have to rely on the information about the products I can get off of the forums; so far, it's been great! I think for the time being I may be better off limiting myself to florals or Taylor's (cheaper price helps) and staying away from the cologne-scented creams, as I don't think we're a good match.

Thanks again!

[wolfemi1]

Ooh, more data!

This one's almost impossible to verify on an empirical level, but this is what I did: I took my tube of Proraso and tube of GFT to verify, and squeezed out a pea-sized amount onto my index finger. I then mushed it around and rinsed it off, almost like washing, until it went away; when the Trumper washed away, it was like slamming on the brakes between my thumb and forefinger, instant friction. The proraso was more gradual, and I don't think it got really quite as frictive after it was rinsed (is frictive a word?).

Do you think that maybe the cologne scent could be acidic, or interfering with the cream formula in some way?

[moses]

Ooh, more data!

This one's almost impossible to verify on an empirical level, but this is what I did: I took my tube of Proraso and tube of GFT to verify, and squeezed out a pea-sized amount onto my index finger. I then mushed it around and rinsed it off, almost like washing, until it went away; when the Trumper washed away, it was like slamming on the brakes between my thumb and forefinger, instant friction. The proraso was more gradual, and I don't think it got really quite as frictive after it was rinsed (is frictive a word?).

Do you think that maybe the cologne scent could be acidic, or interfering with the cream formula in some way?

Interesting. Although not that surprising. This probably isn't such a bad way to do a quick test of that characteristic in a cream or soap. Although of course washing isn't quite the same as scraping, if the lubricating elements are more water soluble.

As for the last question, no, I do not thing so. I still think it has nothing to do with the scent, and everything to do with the underlying formulation of the cream.

-Mo

[moses]

One other thing I feel compelled to add:


I AM SUCH A NERD!!!!

-Mo

[Etalex]

Mo,

Thanks for your definitions of those terms. As I wrote above, I have previously used some of the terms a bit carelessly, although I'm still not sure that they are sufficiently well-defined (or sufficiently distinct) to be used in a clear scientific way. Cushioning, as you defined it, could for example potentially be achieved with ANY cream: Just add less water, and you'll have a thick paste. This is therefore not a property inherent to a cream, but rather depends on several factors. In the end I suppose it is equivalent to something like viscosity.
However, I now understand that cushioning is not the same thing as moisturization. A shaving oil would for example have very little cushion, but loads of moisturization, as well as lots of slip.

Regards,
Alex

[moses]

A shaving oil would for example have very little cushion, but loads of moisturization, as well as lots of slip.

Alex,

Good example. A pretty perfect description of Pacific Shave Oil. And you do make a good point about cushion, as I define it. You could always get it by just leaving your cream as kind of a paste. I guess I mean when mixed up to a reasonable lather. Which makes it kind of a loose term, I realize, but.... In truth, everything else depends at least a little on how much water you use and how it is mixed. I have certainly had the razor head sticking to the face kind of lack of slip problem with creams that should never have that issue, like Taylors or T&H Ultimate Comfort, apparently because of some fairlure in making my lather (I never learned what).

-Mo